JDBoston 0
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kallend 2,146
QuoteThe fact that people blithely assign full credit for good macro events to Presidents they like, and deny it to those they don't, or blame them for the bad things, is just further evidence to me that people have a purely emotional viewpoint about politics that they cloak in whatever facts they can find to try and make it appear logical.
Imagine the real complexity of the economy and world affairs for a second, think about how many variables are affecting each other, and then think about how many people and organizations there are in the government and the private sector who have an effect on those variables and therefore on how things turn out.
Then think about whether it makes sense to say that one person (the President) was "responsible" for what happened while they were President. They can be contributors, sure, but it seems ridiculously simplistic to me to argue back and forth about "my guy did THIS" and "your guy did THAT" when you're talking about events that were larger, more complex, and longer in the making than anything one person could possibly control. Sometimes the evnts happen in part because of them, sometimes the events happen despite them, and sometimes their particular contribution doesn't affect the outcome much.
Not aimed at you, Rick, it's just a general tendency in these political debates that I think is silly.
I mean shit, it's practically primitive. Everyone line up behind their totem pole now! My bear totem will bring back the sun! Ooh look, there it is! See, I was right! Your horse totem sucks! Hah.
My $0.02,
Joe
Mostly true, but consider a situation like the following:
A president makes a statement to the nation that the federal budget deficit will be small and short lived.
That president then sends to Congress a proposal for a significant reduction in federal tax revenues (which Congress passes). and at the same time greatly increases the size of the federal bureaucracy and proposes budgets with greatly increased spending to pay for all that stuff (which Congress passes).
Do you not consider that the president then has primary responsibility if the outcome of his actions is an enormous increase in the federal deficit?
Not that any president would actually do anything so venal.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Isn't that horse dead YET!!!!
Michele 1
QuoteIsn't that horse dead YET!!!!
Yes. however, it seems the esteemed prof is beating it, despite it's putrescence, and various crime scene analysts' drooling all over the forensic evidence of a dead equine.
Ah well....
Does anyone know anything about the following (and if you have links, that'd be good):
~Kerry's early dismissal from the service?
~Kerry's position on terrorism?
~Kerry's committee affiliations?
~Kerry's affiliation with Skull and Bones?
Just curious.
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
quade 4
Kerry was a member of Skull and Bones.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0122-10.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/02/60minutes/main576332.shtml
I'm sort of surprised you couldn't find this. It's very well documented and available.
It's really a non-issue other than for the paranoids that think Skull and Bones is some sort of plot to take over the world. However, if you really thought that, you'd probably have to worry more about the Bush ties than the Kerry ties to Skull and Bones.
In reality, Skull and Bones is nothing more or less than any other frat house at any other well heeled university. It's a little older than most and its members usually have more money and power, but they also had more money and power going into the frat than most people.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0122-10.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/02/60minutes/main576332.shtml
I'm sort of surprised you couldn't find this. It's very well documented and available.
It's really a non-issue other than for the paranoids that think Skull and Bones is some sort of plot to take over the world. However, if you really thought that, you'd probably have to worry more about the Bush ties than the Kerry ties to Skull and Bones.
In reality, Skull and Bones is nothing more or less than any other frat house at any other well heeled university. It's a little older than most and its members usually have more money and power, but they also had more money and power going into the frat than most people.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
quade 4
Michele 1
Thanks, Quade.
I had read that article before, and found it interesting to say the least. The closing paragraph sums it up nicely....
"But the issue goes far beyond theatrics. If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service. Who can be proud of committing war crimes of the sort that Kerry recounted in his 1971 testimony? But if he is proud of his service today, perhaps it is because he always knew that his indictment in 1971 was a piece of political theater that he, an aspiring politician, exploited merely as a "good issue." If the latter is true, he should apologize to every veteran of that war for slandering them to advance his political fortunes."
I'm still wondering about his early release from service, however....
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
I had read that article before, and found it interesting to say the least. The closing paragraph sums it up nicely....
"But the issue goes far beyond theatrics. If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service. Who can be proud of committing war crimes of the sort that Kerry recounted in his 1971 testimony? But if he is proud of his service today, perhaps it is because he always knew that his indictment in 1971 was a piece of political theater that he, an aspiring politician, exploited merely as a "good issue." If the latter is true, he should apologize to every veteran of that war for slandering them to advance his political fortunes."
I'm still wondering about his early release from service, however....
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
quade 4
Kerry on terrorism.
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/homeland/
Analysis from the National Review.
I would have preferred Clark on this particular point since when he disagreed with someone pushing a private agenda, he would actually find a way to get around that and manage to "do the right thing".
As a candidate for President, I don't think the past voting record on the terrorist issues is the perfect way to judge how the person would deal with the issues if he were actually in charge. A Senator will usually consider their own consituiency first and that might not be in total agreement with a broader national policy. In fact, I'd be quite surprised if the areas of the country that had lower threats really wanted their taxes increased to protect the higher threat level areas.
For instance, lets say you live in Lake Woebegone, Minnesota, do you really have to react quite so drastically to terrorist threats as someone in Alexandria, Maryland?
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/homeland/
Analysis from the National Review.
I would have preferred Clark on this particular point since when he disagreed with someone pushing a private agenda, he would actually find a way to get around that and manage to "do the right thing".
As a candidate for President, I don't think the past voting record on the terrorist issues is the perfect way to judge how the person would deal with the issues if he were actually in charge. A Senator will usually consider their own consituiency first and that might not be in total agreement with a broader national policy. In fact, I'd be quite surprised if the areas of the country that had lower threats really wanted their taxes increased to protect the higher threat level areas.
For instance, lets say you live in Lake Woebegone, Minnesota, do you really have to react quite so drastically to terrorist threats as someone in Alexandria, Maryland?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
QuoteThanks, Quade.
I had read that article before, and found it interesting to say the least. The closing paragraph sums it up nicely....
"But the issue goes far beyond theatrics. If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service. Who can be proud of committing war crimes of the sort that Kerry recounted in his 1971 testimony? But if he is proud of his service today, perhaps it is because he always knew that his indictment in 1971 was a piece of political theater that he, an aspiring politician, exploited merely as a "good issue." If the latter is true, he should apologize to every veteran of that war for slandering them to advance his political fortunes."
I'm still wondering about his early release from service, however....
Ciels-
Michele
How could anyone vote for a politician who either was involved in cutting off ears and heads, raping women and many of the other atrocities Kerry described or at the very least, stood by with full knowledge and did nothing?
quade 4
Quote
I'm still wondering about his early release from service, however....
More so than GWB's early release?
I mean, if anyone earned an early release, I'd think it's the guy that got a THREE Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
For instance, lets say you live in Lake Woebegone, Minnesota, do you really have to react quite so drastically to terrorist threats as someone in Alexandra, Virginia?
The terrorists may have hit New York on 9/11, but the financial impact was felt everywhere, even Lake Woebegone.
never pull low......unless you are
quade 4
QuoteThe terrorists may have hit New York on 9/11, but the financial impact was felt everywhere, even Lake Woebegone.
You've missed the point.
Every time the Department of Homeland Security raises the threat level, they do so for the enitre nation. Lake Woebegone is highly unlikely to be hit (especially since it's a ficticous city
) yet they still have to (at least if they were a real city) pay for additional levels of local security even though the threat is perhaps a thousand miles away.quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
kallend 2,146
QuoteIsn't that horse dead YET!!!!
Maybe I'm wierd, but I'm far more interested in how a president runs the economy of the nation than in his sex life.
I'd like someone who acts consistently with what he tells us he's gonna do.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Guest
QuoteThanks, Quade.
I had read that article before, and found it interesting to say the least. The closing paragraph sums it up nicely....
"But the issue goes far beyond theatrics. If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service. Who can be proud of committing war crimes of the sort that Kerry recounted in his 1971 testimony? But if he is proud of his service today, perhaps it is because he always knew that his indictment in 1971 was a piece of political theater that he, an aspiring politician, exploited merely as a "good issue." If the latter is true, he should apologize to every veteran of that war for slandering them to advance his political fortunes."
I'm still wondering about his early release from service, however....
Ciels-
Michele
Lots of troops got an early out - there's no disgrace in it.
What IS a disgrace, however, is that Kerry KNOWINGLY used a pack of lies to smear his fellow GIs and further his political career at the same time.
Which is why, if Kerry comes to Seattle, I'm going to make sure I get a chance to yell "Baby Killer!" at him.
"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."
Michele 1
QuoteI mean, if anyone earned an early release, I'd think it's the guy that got a THREE Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star.
If one side is making a huge issue about Bush being released from service early to attend school, I was wondering why Kerry was released early, as well. PTSD? Early release so he could go to school? Just was done with service? Really wondering, not being critical one way or the other (no facts to be critical of, just yet, imho).
Further, Clinton avoided the draft, and yet was supported by the same folks - so I guess outright avoidance is more acceptable than is serving in the NG? I am somewhat confused by that position.
I am simply looking to compare issues which are fuzzy to me, side by side, and see which I believe in more. Contrary to popular belief, I am looking hard at who will be leading my country in the next 4 years - a time I personally believe will be highly contentious and rather difficult one for the world as a whole.
For instance, didn't Kerry serve on the Senate Intel committee? Did he or didn't he get the same intel Bush did, and voted to support Bush's action? That's what I'm wondering.
Sure, there are lots of commentary being made from one side or the other. He did this. Well, you did that. Nyah, your mama kinda stuff. I'd rather not hear rhetoric, and simply consider these things for myself.
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
juanesky 0
You don't cease to amaze me Kallend, all that knowledge, and time spent studying, and yet you can see that the issue is not the sex part.
In plain English, the president swears to protect US citizens, and the constitution, and to uphold the law, when he is accused in court -read (PAULA JONES)- he decides to use the power of the office in full swing, lies under oath, then rectifies it, making sure everyone understands he is lying, yet you seem quite OK with this, and so all those who poorly try to deflect this as a right wing conspiracy.
WHy don't you enlighten this public, and explain them the actual reasons there was an impeachment, as well as the outcome on the lawsuit from Mrs. Jones
Michele, it seems that all the good explaining is well misread, *ahem* spinned, to avoid facing the truth.
If someone accusesd of GWB of being a liar, I don't see why his political enemy try to indict him......but guess...what do we know...we are not doctors....
In plain English, the president swears to protect US citizens, and the constitution, and to uphold the law, when he is accused in court -read (PAULA JONES)- he decides to use the power of the office in full swing, lies under oath, then rectifies it, making sure everyone understands he is lying, yet you seem quite OK with this, and so all those who poorly try to deflect this as a right wing conspiracy.
WHy don't you enlighten this public, and explain them the actual reasons there was an impeachment, as well as the outcome on the lawsuit from Mrs. Jones
Michele, it seems that all the good explaining is well misread, *ahem* spinned, to avoid facing the truth.
If someone accusesd of GWB of being a liar, I don't see why his political enemy try to indict him......but guess...what do we know...we are not doctors....
"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon
quade 4
Quote
For instance, didn't Kerry serve on the Senate Intel committee?
He doesn't currently. Maybe he did in the past, but not right now.
http://kerry.senate.gov/bandwidth/about/committee.html
http://intelligence.senate.gov/members.htm
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
kallend 2,146
QuoteYou don't cease to amaze me Kallend, all that knowledge, and time spent studying, and yet you can see that the issue is not the sex part.
In plain English, the president swears to protect US citizens, and the constitution, and to uphold the law, when he is accused in court -read (PAULA JONES)- he decides to use the power of the office in full swing, lies under oath, then rectifies it, making sure everyone understands he is lying, yet you seem quite OK with this, and so all those who poorly try to deflect this as a right wing conspiracy.
WHy don't you enlighten this public, and explain them the actual reasons there was an impeachment, as well as the outcome on the lawsuit from Mrs. Jones
Michele, it seems that all the good explaining is well misread, *ahem* spinned, to avoid facing the truth.
If someone accusesd of GWB of being a liar, I don't see why his political enemy try to indict him......but guess...what do we know...we are not doctors....
Here's a link to one of many posts in which I stated VERY CLEARLY that CLINTON IS A LIAR. That was last November. You have been participating here since well before that, so misrepresenting my position reflects very poorly on your own integrity.
There is no disputing that Clinton is a liar. So for that matter was Eisenhower. He lied to Congress over U2 flights over the USSR.
Some people are disputing that Dubya Bush is a liar despite overwhelming evidence that he lied over WMDs and is either a liar or totally incompetent in respect to statements made over the deficit and unemployment. I happen to think he's the liar (based on his WMD statements), but if anyone can prove that it's really total incompetence, that's fine too.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Michele 1
My bad. I can't find Kerry as a member of the SIC at all. But I coulda sworn I'd heard something like that.
I wonder what I heard, and why I associated it with the SIC?
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
I wonder what I heard, and why I associated it with the SIC?
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
juanesky 0
Thanks for the link, but i did not see that post, and only do so when I have the time.
I agree on your assertion about that it looks that GWB may be lying, but if he is doing so, how come there has not been any movement by the opposition, to actually charge him? maybe the facts are not there, at least yet.
Also, I think if he is a liar, then, not only him should go to court, but also, the UK PM Blair, and Pres Aznar.....and all those who made the conspiracy of atacking Iraq.
THe problem with this is that many take a position thinking that the Iraq war was a mistake, and prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to SH, despite that until the very last day of Clinton Presidency, he claimed that Iraq was an actual threat......
Don't get that at all....
Thanks for your answer.
I agree on your assertion about that it looks that GWB may be lying, but if he is doing so, how come there has not been any movement by the opposition, to actually charge him? maybe the facts are not there, at least yet.
Also, I think if he is a liar, then, not only him should go to court, but also, the UK PM Blair, and Pres Aznar.....and all those who made the conspiracy of atacking Iraq.
THe problem with this is that many take a position thinking that the Iraq war was a mistake, and prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to SH, despite that until the very last day of Clinton Presidency, he claimed that Iraq was an actual threat......
Don't get that at all....
Thanks for your answer.
"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon
kallend 2,146
Well, we agree on something
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
juanesky 0
Well, beer is on me......for that first
"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon
Guest
Kerry got a Silver Star. That's the 3rd highest award for Valor. The only awards above that one are the Navy Cross and the MoH.
If commissioned officers have no other obligations (such as fulfilling a service commitment after a military-funded education., id est, a service academy), they can ask to be released early.
This happens all the time. Example: if there are a ten 0-3's (Navy lieutenant), but there are only billets for seven of them, the other three have to find something else to do. They can either sit around doing useless crap that an enlisted rate could/should be doing, "go shopping" at higher command or at the Pentagon for another billet somewhere, or they can ask to be released.
After a commissioned officer completes any obligatory service time (usually three years, but up to six in the case of a USAF MD I knew who went through medical school on Uncle Sugar's dime), they're in the service purely on at "at will" basis - they can resign any time they feel like it, unless there is something specifically keeping that from happening, such as being in a mission-essential job.
Kerry was a Riverine, and although that's good combat and leadership experience, it didn't square with what the Navy wants from its officers - management of big boats.
While Kerry was busy being shot at on a small river boat in the Mekong, his contemporaries were paying their dues and earning their chops by being section officers on subs, aircraft carriers, destroyers, etc., the best of whom were eventually being groomed for positions of authority; e.g., their chance at command.
So when he came back, he was years behind in the career game. He obviously took stock of his chances, decided it wasn't worth it, and asked for an early out. The Navy, coming to the same conclusion Kerry did, granted it. No harm, no foul.
In the case of Dubya, it was probably much the same story. Political influence may have had a role in getting him into the Guard, but he had to go active duty for UPT, same as anybody else.
Other factors are how good of a pilot one is, and the kind of aircraft available. If either of these was lacking, and flying hours weren't available, Dubya could have asked for an early out as well.
BTW F-102s did fly in Vietnam, as did F-106s; I don't recall whether they were Guard units, though they could have been. However, by the time Dubya was in the service, the USAFR / ANG ops in Vietnam had been scaled back, as had just about everything else. In my opinion, therefore, Dubya arrived at the party just a little too late.
The same was true of many pilots in the prior generation - that is, those who trained for air combat in the Korean War, only to have it fizzle out before they completed their (lengthy) training. US astronaut Michael Collins was one of these. He was two years behind Buzz Aldrin at the USMA (West Point); Buzz went to Korea and bagged some MiGs and became a commander of a squadron in Germany (22nd TFS, part of 36TFW, Bitburg, Germany in 1960); Collins never went to Korea, and put in for Test Pilot School instead. In 1969, they both went to the moon.
BTW - Aldrin was released from active duty to attend MIT.
The sum total of this is that service records are nothing to go by. That Kerry served with valor and distinction speaks highly of his character. It's what he did afterwards that was so disgraceful, and will never, ever be forgotten by me and my fellow ex-GIs and the family members of those who served in Vietnam, but were treated so shabbily thanks to Kerry's political gamesmanship. For shame. For F*ING shame.
IF, however, he were to publicly mea culpa as his comrade Jane Fonda did, that would go a long way to settling issues. It would also help restore my faith in his character. That he has never owned up to the lies he KNOWINGLY told to Congress about "Winter Soldier" will forever be a black stain that won't go away, much like Teddy and Chappaquiddick. Massachussets voters may like hypocritical drunken murderers like Teddy, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to put up with his kind.
Hope this has helped clarify things for you. Clueless reporters and politicians should stay the f* out of things they know little or nothing of; i.e. military service.
Respectfully,
mh
If commissioned officers have no other obligations (such as fulfilling a service commitment after a military-funded education., id est, a service academy), they can ask to be released early.
This happens all the time. Example: if there are a ten 0-3's (Navy lieutenant), but there are only billets for seven of them, the other three have to find something else to do. They can either sit around doing useless crap that an enlisted rate could/should be doing, "go shopping" at higher command or at the Pentagon for another billet somewhere, or they can ask to be released.
After a commissioned officer completes any obligatory service time (usually three years, but up to six in the case of a USAF MD I knew who went through medical school on Uncle Sugar's dime), they're in the service purely on at "at will" basis - they can resign any time they feel like it, unless there is something specifically keeping that from happening, such as being in a mission-essential job.
Kerry was a Riverine, and although that's good combat and leadership experience, it didn't square with what the Navy wants from its officers - management of big boats.
While Kerry was busy being shot at on a small river boat in the Mekong, his contemporaries were paying their dues and earning their chops by being section officers on subs, aircraft carriers, destroyers, etc., the best of whom were eventually being groomed for positions of authority; e.g., their chance at command.
So when he came back, he was years behind in the career game. He obviously took stock of his chances, decided it wasn't worth it, and asked for an early out. The Navy, coming to the same conclusion Kerry did, granted it. No harm, no foul.
In the case of Dubya, it was probably much the same story. Political influence may have had a role in getting him into the Guard, but he had to go active duty for UPT, same as anybody else.
Other factors are how good of a pilot one is, and the kind of aircraft available. If either of these was lacking, and flying hours weren't available, Dubya could have asked for an early out as well.
BTW F-102s did fly in Vietnam, as did F-106s; I don't recall whether they were Guard units, though they could have been. However, by the time Dubya was in the service, the USAFR / ANG ops in Vietnam had been scaled back, as had just about everything else. In my opinion, therefore, Dubya arrived at the party just a little too late.
The same was true of many pilots in the prior generation - that is, those who trained for air combat in the Korean War, only to have it fizzle out before they completed their (lengthy) training. US astronaut Michael Collins was one of these. He was two years behind Buzz Aldrin at the USMA (West Point); Buzz went to Korea and bagged some MiGs and became a commander of a squadron in Germany (22nd TFS, part of 36TFW, Bitburg, Germany in 1960); Collins never went to Korea, and put in for Test Pilot School instead. In 1969, they both went to the moon.
BTW - Aldrin was released from active duty to attend MIT.
The sum total of this is that service records are nothing to go by. That Kerry served with valor and distinction speaks highly of his character. It's what he did afterwards that was so disgraceful, and will never, ever be forgotten by me and my fellow ex-GIs and the family members of those who served in Vietnam, but were treated so shabbily thanks to Kerry's political gamesmanship. For shame. For F*ING shame.
IF, however, he were to publicly mea culpa as his comrade Jane Fonda did, that would go a long way to settling issues. It would also help restore my faith in his character. That he has never owned up to the lies he KNOWINGLY told to Congress about "Winter Soldier" will forever be a black stain that won't go away, much like Teddy and Chappaquiddick. Massachussets voters may like hypocritical drunken murderers like Teddy, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to put up with his kind.
Hope this has helped clarify things for you. Clueless reporters and politicians should stay the f* out of things they know little or nothing of; i.e. military service.
Respectfully,
mh
"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."
kallend 2,146
QuoteQuoteIsn't that horse dead YET!!!!
Yes. however, it seems the esteemed prof is beating it, despite it's putrescence, and various crime scene analysts' drooling all over the forensic evidence of a dead equine.
Ah well....
Does anyone know anything about the following (and if you have links, that'd be good):
~Kerry's early dismissal from the service?
~Kerry's position on terrorism?
~Kerry's committee affiliations?
~Kerry's affiliation with Skull and Bones?
Just curious.
Ciels-
Michele
Instead of making "clever" remarks, how about giving one of your customary logical responses:
A president makes a statement to the nation that the federal budget deficit will be small and short-term.
That president then sends to Congress a proposal for a significant reduction in federal tax revenues (which Congress passes). At the same time he greatly increases the size of the federal bureaucracy and proposes budgets with greatly increased spending to pay for all that stuff (which Congress also passes).
Do you not consider that this president then has primary responsibility if the outcome of his actions is an increase in the federal deficit to record levels into the forseeable future?
And was not his initial statement (small, short-lived...) deliberately misleading in the light of his actions?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Imagine the real complexity of the economy and world affairs for a second, think about how many variables are affecting each other, and then think about how many people and organizations there are in the government and the private sector who have an effect on those variables and therefore on how things turn out.
Then think about whether it makes sense to say that one person (the President) was "responsible" for what happened while they were President. They can be contributors, sure, but it seems ridiculously simplistic to me to argue back and forth about "my guy did THIS" and "your guy did THAT" when you're talking about events that were larger, more complex, and longer in the making than anything one person could possibly control. Sometimes the evnts happen in part because of them, sometimes the events happen despite them, and sometimes their particular contribution doesn't affect the outcome much.
Not aimed at you, Rick, it's just a general tendency in these political debates that I think is silly.
I mean shit, it's practically primitive. Everyone line up behind their totem pole now! My bear totem will bring back the sun! Ooh look, there it is! See, I was right! Your horse totem sucks! Hah.
My $0.02,
Joe
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