New Incident Reporting Habits

[Auryn 0]

I've seen that, more and more frequently lately, the people who've witnessed and/or have first hand info on incidents are posting details under troll accounts. It's obvious by their posts that they're experienced jumpers; why do you think it is that they feel pressure to do things this way?

I think this is a very valid safety and training question-why can't people come forward and say "here's who I am, and here's what I saw/obtained first hand info about...."

[slotperfect 7]

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under troll accounts

Would you care to point out your examples?

Arrive Safely

John

[BillyVance 34]

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under troll accounts

Would you care to point out your examples?

This is one example, second post of that thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3146097;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[slotperfect 7]

And that would be a troll account because . . . . ???

Arrive Safely

John

[Andy_Copland 0]

I think troll is the wrong word, i think he means people want to stay annonymous.

Why do they feel they have to be a cloak and dagger figure is the question i think.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[stratostar 5]

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why do you think it is that they feel pressure to do things this way?

How many DZ's you been thrown off for not touting the party line? Or how DZO's have you had get in your face and threaten to throw you off because of what you do or say off the dz?

How many deaths or incidents have you been involved in where you could be called in to court to testify and have your words/post used in court?

When you can answer that, then you'll understand why people feel the need to remain unknown.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Andy9o8 2]

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why do you think it is that they feel pressure to do things this way?

How many DZ's you been thrown off for not touting the party line? Or how DZO's have you had get in your face and threaten to throw you off because of what you do or say off the dz?

How many deaths or incidents have you been involved in where you could be called in to court to testify and have your words/post used in court?

When you can answer that, then you'll understand why people feel the need to remain unknown.

Ding ding ding!

We have a winner.

[Auryn 0]

I've not been thrown off any DZ for not towing the party line, although I have been completely chastised at one b/c of something I said online back in the days of wreck.dot for not towing the party line. They'll still take my money, but not allow me to be involved beyond that.

I've been involved in one serious incident that might've ended up in court; At the time, and during my following actions, I never thought about remaining anonymous.

The factors you mention are very real factors-and they are the factors that I think some people should start to think about a bit more, re: our community as a whole. I don't remember, until recently, that people were pressured to remain anonymous.

re: the legal issues: and this is an honest question-how many lawsuits against DZs, or anyone else protected under the waiver, have actually been successful? I don't know of any, and if there were any, I'd think it'd be ALL over the news.

So, I guess that's the next point of discussion: forget the DZ politics, what about the legal end? If you have specifics and don't want to post them, you can PM me and I'll keep my mouth shut.

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why do you think it is that they feel pressure to do things this way?

How many DZ's you been thrown off for not touting the party line? Or how DZO's have you had get in your face and threaten to throw you off because of what you do or say off the dz?

How many deaths or incidents have you been involved in where you could be called in to court to testify and have your words/post used in court?

When you can answer that, then you'll understand why people feel the need to remain unknown.

[Auryn 0]

These things have always been risks of the sport. My question is, why, just recently, are people turning to anonymity? I haven't heard of any specific event that would be a clear cause of this.

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why do you think it is that they feel pressure to do things this way?

How many DZ's you been thrown off for not touting the party line? Or how DZO's have you had get in your face and threaten to throw you off because of what you do or say off the dz?

How many deaths or incidents have you been involved in where you could be called in to court to testify and have your words/post used in court?

When you can answer that, then you'll understand why people feel the need to remain unknown.

Ding ding ding!

We have a winner.

[skybytch 273]

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the legal issues: and this is an honest question-how many lawsuits against DZs, or anyone else protected under the waiver, have actually been successful?

Any idea how much it costs to defend yourself in a lawsuit, even if it never gets to court?

[Andy9o8 2]

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the legal issues: and this is an honest question-how many lawsuits against DZs, or anyone else protected under the waiver, have actually been successful?

Any idea how much it costs to defend yourself in a lawsuit, even if it never gets to court?

Another winner!

[skydived19006 4]

I believe that currently the plane crash near St. Lewis is in process, and I've noticed another thread regarding Bill Dause. Law suites are not all that uncommon.

Depending on what I'm commenting on, I'm very conscious of what I "enter into the permanent record" here.

Edit to add:
I'd guess that the whole situation with Skyride has made a few more folks conscious of the legal implications of posting in a public forum.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[Auryn 0]

Now that I've had a couple of days to think about this, I still can't reconcile it. This sport is supposed to be 100 percent about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for your life. It's what's taught to students from day 1. However, what kind of example can we as a community be for them, if we don't take PERSONAL responsibility for what we say and do? I see things becoming more and more like the corporate world where "the buck stops....... somewhere other than me." And how does this help the current image problems we have? People bitch about the media (which DZ.com is part of) and then only give details about some serious things with hidden identities. It's the same thing as appearing on CBS news with your face hidden, voice disguised, and then turning around and saying "TAKE ME (US) SERIOUSLY!!! WE'RE REALLY ON THE UP AND UP!!!"

We tell students to take personal responsibility for their lives, which they should, and HAVE to do, yet not take our own?

how hypocritical is that? Especially when people are more than happy to take personal responsibility for record swoops, record formations, etc? but not the rest?

I guess I'm not "towing the party line" here, but I can't do it. I don't run around saying "I saw this, I saw that etc..." but if asked of information about something that's already in the domain of public knowledge, I will either: not give it at all; or give it and put my name behind it.

I guess this comes down to two points: if you're willing to say something, say it, as an adult, with your name attached, or NOT SAY ANYTHING AT ALL. Let some other schmuch, who doesn't know better, like me, do it and take responsibility for it. To lawyers, these troll accounts (and I refuse to call them anything better) reporting details of incidents JUST MAKES THINGS LOOK WORSE!!! IT MAKES US LOOK LIKE WE HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE.

That's the bottom line IMO.

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I believe that currently the plane crash near St. Lewis is in process, and I've noticed another thread regarding Bill Dause. Law suites are not all that uncommon.

Depending on what I'm commenting on, I'm very conscious of what I "enter into the permanent record" here.

Edit to add:
I'd guess that the whole situation with Skyride has made a few more folks conscious of the legal implications of posting in a public forum.

[redlegphi 0]

I tend to disagree. In our sport, it's extremely important that if something goes wrong, that we, as a community, can quickly figure out what that is in order to prevent the same thing from happening in the future. Meaning we need to have witness reports from everybody involved in an incident. If some of those involved in an incident feel like they could be held liable because of things they say in their statement and therefore want to post anonymously in order to avoid that liability, so be it. It's more important (to me anyway) to know what happened than to know who is telling me what happened.

[billvon 3,087]

>I will either: not give it at all; or give it and put my name behind it.

That's fine. Other people post anonymously. That's also fine. The critical part of the process is getting accurate information out there so others can avoid similar incidents.

In a sport like skydiving, physics and problem management often trumps moral considerations.

> IT MAKES US LOOK LIKE WE HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE.
> That's the bottom line IMO.

Gotta disagree there. Who cares what we "look like?" What I care about is avoiding future incidents. And one dead skydiver is a lot more significant, to me, than a thousand anonymous accounts of an incident.