Kerry makes sense here

[Kennedy 0]

"I served in Vietnam, no fair pointing out that I voted to cut spending!"

reminds me of those guys who want free parking, and first service at lunch, and...

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By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer

George W. Bush's presidential campaign told John Kerry (news - web sites) it "does not condone" any effort to impugn his patriotism but asserted that senator's voting record on national security and defense issues is a valid target of political scrutiny.

Responding Sunday to a letter in which Kerry accused President Bush (news - web sites) of using surrogates to attack his military service in Vietnam and his subsequent opposition to the war, Bush-Cheney 2004 campaign chairman Marc Racicot said, "I ask you to elevate the remarkably negative tone of your campaign and your party over the past year."

Kerry had taken umbrage at statements that Sen. Saxby Chambliss made earlier, predicting trouble for the Massachusetts Democrat in Georgia's primary because of a "32-year history of voting to cut defense programs and cut defense systems."

In the letter to Bush Saturday, Kerry wrote: "As you well know, Vietnam was a very difficult and painful period in our nation's history, and the struggle for our veterans continues. So, it has been hard to believe that you would choose to reopen these wounds for your personal political gain. But, that is what you have chosen to do."

"Saxby Chambliss, on the part of the president and his henchmen, decided today to question my commitment to the defense of our nation," Kerry said while campaigning in Georgia, one of 10 states choosing electoral delegates on March 2.

Kerry told a news conference he voted for the largest defense and intelligence budgets in American history, although sometimes he "voted for common sense to make changes."

In his reply letter Sunday, Racicot said, "Our campaign does not condone any effort to impugn your patriotism. Your letter claims that supporters of our campaign questioned your service and patriotism. In fact, that simply wasn't the case."

"Our campaign is not questioning your patriotism or military service, but your votes and statements on issues now facing our country," said Racicot, former governor of Montana. "Senator Chambliss addressed your Senate record of voting against the weapons systems that are winning the war on terror."

Countered Kerry spokesman David Wade: "The Republicans need to answer to the American people for their craven tactics that degrade our democracy and question the patriotism of those who stand up and ask questions about the direction of our country. ... John Kerry takes a back seat to no one when it comes to maintaining the strongest military on the face of the earth and keeping our promises to America's veterans."

Racicot's reply came as Kerry and Sen. John Edwards (news - web sites) visited black churches in states conducting primaries in the March 2 Super Tuesday series of delegate-selection contests. Kerry has a commanding lead over Edwards, winning 15 out of the 17 states so far. Edwards, who has won only in South Carolina, has been striving to demonstrate to voters that he would have a better chance than Kerry against Bush this fall.

"You can feel the life and the heartbeat of this church," Edwards said at the 5,000-member First Church of God in Columbus, Ohio, appealing to a constituency that is crucial in the March 2 contests. "I'm speaking to people who understand that firsthand," said Edwards. After church, more than 1,000 jammed into an Ohio State University ballroom to cheer Edwards' message.

Kerry visited Atlanta's Ebenezer Baptist Church, where Martin Luther King Jr. once preached, and was welcomed warmly by King's widow, Coretta Scott King. Kerry didn't speak at the service, but when hundreds rushed to meet him during a meet-and-greet, Ebenezer's pastor asked parishioners to return to their seats to continue the service.

Edwards has said he would have special appeal in the South, but influential black leaders in Georgia lined up for Kerry. Three of Georgia's black Congress members — Reps. Denise Majette, Sanford Bishop and John Lewis — have endorsed Kerry and accompanied him to Ebenezer. Mrs. King has not yet committed to a candidate.

Kerry also held a town hall meeting while in Atlanta, blasting Bush for what he called the biggest transfer of wealth from the middle class to the wealthy in the country's history.

"I've never seen the system tilted, stacked against the average person as much as it is today," he said to an overflow crowd that spilled onto the sidewalk outside the Roxy Theatre.

Meanwhile, Democrats criticized Ralph Nader (news - web sites)'s announcement Sunday that he will again seek the presidency, this time as an independent.

"It's an act of total ego," said Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico.

Ed Gillespie, chairman of the Republican National Committee (news - web sites), said, "The fact is that if Ralph Nader runs, President Bush is going to be re-elected, and if Ralph Nader doesn't run, President Bush is going to be re-elected.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Michele 1]

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"As you well know, Vietnam was a very difficult and painful period in our nation's history, and the struggle for our veterans continues. So, it has been hard to believe that you would choose to reopen these wounds for your personal political gain. But, that is what you have chosen to do."

Um, right.

Isn't Kerry the one who runs around saying "I'm a war hero", when he lost less than 5 days (IIRC) for all three purple hearts combined?

Isn't he the one who voted to cut defense spending many times in his public service, had his Winter Soldier testimony used by the VietCong to torture our guys that were POW? This is the same Kerry who pushed for trade normalizations with Viet Nam, and then his cousin's company got the $905mm real estate development contract (or something like that...)?

I suppose comparing his voting record to his words may be a problem, but only because he tends to switch hit. He authored part of the Patriot Act, IIRC, and is now saying it's a problem; like him voting for regime change in Iraq and 1998 and 2002, but now saying he never did, or didn't want that.

Geesh...at least Dean understood that people can check things out a whole lot more now than ever before, via the internet....

Well...like GM says, it's a long way to Tipperary....oh, wait, Kerry's not Irish, like he's claimed.

Sigh....

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Kennedy 0]

Wow, the voice of reason is the first to reply to one of my threads. I never thought I'd see the day.

By the way, I don't know if it's that your writing style seems similar to my own influencing my opinion, but I thought that was a very well constructed post. Articulate, containing substance without becoming a novel, a touch of sarcasm without dripping venom, and a nice little F-U closer.

Nice.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Guest]

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Isn't Kerry the one who runs around saying "I'm a war hero", when he lost less than 5 days (IIRC) for all three purple hearts combined?

Please don't knock the Purple Heart. According to COL David Hackworth, it's the only award worthy of respect. Kerry didn't get Purple Hearts for catching VD. He was in harm's way. Please give credit where it is due. Anything less diminishes the award, not Kerry.

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Isn't he the one who voted to cut defense spending many times in his public service, had his Winter Soldier testimony used by the VietCong to torture our guys that were POW?

Now that I agree with.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Michele 1]

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Kerry didn't get Purple Hearts for catching VD. He was in harm's way.

You're absolutely correct, Mark. He was in harm's way.

But his actions post war - the throwing of the medals over the fence (but not his....), the testimony he gave (Winter Soldier), and his willingness to denegrate the war - while our men were still in harm's way - and the use the Viet Cong made of the testimony in furtherance of the torture of our POWs - that's more what I was commenting on. Add to that his deplorable voting record cutting spending for our Vets, and you have, imho, a duplicity obvious to anyone willing to look at more than the flash Kerry presents.

It then becomes more of an issue when someone else uses his records to demonstrate this duplicity and he stands there and whines about it. That is more of what I was commenting about, not the Purple Hearts.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[turtlespeed 226]

I can see it now -

Oh, don't look at my past, that's not fair - You should be focusing on my future - But we as democrats feel it's ok to do dig into the past of our current Pres. - doesn't that sound kinda like do as I say, not as I do?

Next he'll say that he has no control over what his party does - hmmm, that would make him a puppet, no?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,090]

>Add to that his deplorable voting record cutting spending for our
> Vets, and you have, imho, a duplicity obvious to anyone willing to
>look at more than the flash Kerry presents.

I think it's interesting that you think that Kerry's experience in the war makes him less qualified than you to comment on things like defense budget cuts and overall support for the war. Personally, I think his direct experiences makes him more, rather than less, qualified to claim that a war he was in was wrong.

[JohnRich 4]

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Please don't knock the Purple Heart. According to COL David Hackworth, it's the only award worthy of respect. Kerry didn't get Purple Hearts for catching VD. He was in harm's way

This comment is not about how Kerry got his award.

Originally, the Purple Heart was awarded only for being injured in conjunction with an act of extreme bravery. That latter part was dropped some time later.

The Purple Heart today is awarded simply for receiving an injury while in a combat zone. That doesn't necessarily mean the injury was caused during battle, or by enemy gunfire.

When I was in the Marines, I knew several guys who had purple hearts from Vietnam. One of them I recall cut himself with a power saw while building a bunker in combat zone. He considered his Purple Heart award to be a joke.

So not all Purple Hearts are awarded for what the general public presumes.

[Michele 1]

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I think it's interesting that you think that Kerry's experience in the war makes him less qualified than you to comment on things like defense budget cuts and overall support for the war.

Qualified or not in your eyes, I have a vote. Are you suggesting that I not research and look into things and make up my own mind about things because I'm "less qualified" that someone else?

Because that, my friend, leads to a most slippery, elitist slope....

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 3,090]

>Are you suggesting that I not research and look into things and
> make up my own mind about things because I'm "less qualified"
> that someone else?

Not at all; vote however you choose. Your (fortunate) lack of experience in combat makes your criticism of decisions he made which were at least partly _based_ on his experience in combat ring somewhat hollow. Sort of like a whuffo complaining that a local jumper is totally unsafe because he broke his leg. Other skydivers who knew him and saw him land might have a different opinion. That certainly doesn't make the whuffo's opinion invalid, but one might wonder if the jumper involved has a more accurate view of the risks in skydiving than the whuffo.

[Guest]

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>Add to that his deplorable voting record cutting spending for our
> Vets, and you have, imho, a duplicity obvious to anyone willing to
>look at more than the flash Kerry presents.

I think it's interesting that you think that Kerry's experience in the war makes him less qualified than you to comment on things like defense budget cuts and overall support for the war. Personally, I think his direct experiences makes him more, rather than less, qualified to claim that a war he was in was wrong.

He's a decorated vet, it's true, but that doesn't excuse the fact that Kerry knowingly used LIES for "Winter Solider". And don't try to tell me that he was "duped". A simple background check on the phony GIs would have revealed "Winter Soldier" was bullshit, but that wouldn't have been politically useful to him. His selective amnesia is what I've got a problem with. It's not his objection to an "immoral" war (as opposed to a "moral" war?), it's the way he went about it.

And not only that - HE VOTED FOR THE IRAQ WAR. How does he reconcile his stand on "immoral" war (Vietnam) with what he is on record for supporting (Iraq)?

So he drove a gunboat in Vietnam. That doesn't make him an expert on defense policy. Let's see him spend a few years with RAND or at the War College. And while he's at it, he could take a few lessons from his betters, like Bobby Ray Inman, or James F. Dunnigan.

As I've said, this is a very, very hot button with me. Kerry is a lying, two-faced, hypocritical Northeast Liberal, and that's the worst kind (or the best, depending on your political stripe). I know that makes him an ideal Massachussets politician (like his butt-buddy, Ted Kennedy), but that doesn't mean the rest of us want him as a president.


mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[turtlespeed 226]

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Sort of like a whuffo complaining that a local jumper is totally unsafe because he broke his leg.

With the exception that the media doesn't show as much coverage, cause and effect, or show political affiliation toward the skydiver. They are consistent that they show the bad parts of what happened, not the good.

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Other skydivers who knew him and saw him land might have a different opinion. That certainly doesn't make the whuffo's opinion invalid, but one might wonder if the jumper involved has a more accurate view of the risks in skydiving than the whuffo

Invalid points are what Kerry's campain is based on. What you are describing is a Tandem student having more a more valid opinion of the Skydiving Community, as opposed to the regulars that are there EVERY weekend.
Kerry was a soldier, not a polotician, then. Are you saying that he was versed in the political spending arena while he was in Vietnam?

And they very well may say that the SD'r was a complete idiot.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[PhillyKev 0]

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And not only that - HE VOTED FOR THE IRAQ WAR.

A little simplistic, don't you think? He voted to allow the president to use the military against Iraq as a last resort if UN inspections failed. Unfortunately, he, and the rest of those who voted for that (all but 2) believed Bush would actually live up to his end of the agreement and allow the UN to do its job.

[Guest]

My father got a Purple Heart in Vietnam when an RPG landed near him and detonated.

Fortunately, the warhead didn't have his name on it; it was addressed "To whom it may concern".

He suffered ruptured eardrums and some minor shapnel, much as Kerry did.

Your associate who got the award because of a job-related injury (as opposed to being wounded by an enemy act) did not deserve it. It should not have been awarded. The award has historically been misused from time to time. This unfortunately tends to diminish the value for those who truly earned it, even if like my Dad, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Michele 1]

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vote however you choose.

Thanks. I would've without your permission anyway . Cool part of this country.

The point I was making is that Kerry is politically expedient, and getting his knickers twisted because his records are being questioned in what will prove to be a most contentious run for the presidency, and what will prove to be a difficult next 4 years.

You stated in another post to research, and that's what I did. And what I will do all the way down the line.

While it's true that I don't have combat experience, I do have a brain, and I will look, read, learn and listen. I will think, and project, and make determinations on not just what I'm fed via soundbytes, but look at the whole picture. I was not fortunate enough to be able to attend college; no money, and no scholarships available for me - and so I'll do again what I've done in the past. But it doesn't give me a disadvantage if I spend time doing research and not simply relying on someone's opinion because "they were there". That research provides me a wider understanding, and the ability to have hindsight, as well, which is not something anyone can have in the moment. That, imho, is a distinct advantage over reliance on someone's word.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Guest]

Kerry wrote: "As you well know, Vietnam was a very difficult and painful period in our nation's history, and the struggle for our veterans continues. So, it has been hard to believe that you would choose to reopen these wounds for your personal political gain. But, that is what you have chosen to do."

H Y P O C R I T E

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Kennedy 0]

Yeah, that's the part the really got my atention. How is Bush dredging up the past when Kerry's out there campaigning as a War Hero?

"I was in Vietnam, vote for me."
followed by
"Hey, no fair bringing up my history of votes concerning the military. You're bringing up pain memories."

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

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I think it's interesting that you think that Kerry's experience in the war makes him less qualified than you to comment on things like defense budget cuts and overall support for the war.

I don't thinkit makes him any more or less capable of making spending decisions. I just find it funny that Kerry takes issue when someone said "32-year history of voting to cut defense programs and cut defense systems." If it's not true say so. Don't pull this shattered-dream BS rhetoric.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 3,090]

>How is Bush dredging up the past when Kerry's out there
>campaigning as a War Hero?

Please post a single link where Kerry, himself, called himself a war hero. Claiming he did is like claiming that Bush called himself a war hero in Iraq because he landed on a carrier.

[Kennedy 0]

OK, replace War Hero with "wounded veteran who's been there and understands." Same point. How is it Bush bringing up the past when Kerry's been talking about it since he first heard of Dean?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 3,090]

> don't thinkit makes him any more or less capable of making
>spending decisions.

I think it gives him a bit of an advantage, just as a pilot would have a bit of an advantage over a non-pilot if he became an FAA administrator and had to make budget decisions. It helps when you know what REILS are if you want to buy more.

>I just find it funny that Kerry takes issue when someone said "32
>year history of voting to cut defense programs and cut defense
> systems."

Yeah, I didn't get that whole stink.

[PhillyKev 0]

Just because GWB has no examples of anything positive he's ever done for anyone in his past is no reason to exclude Kerry from talking about his.

[Kennedy 0]

While I think a grunt may make a better general than a random citizen[and than many generals], I don't think that gives him any unique insight into federal defense and security spending thirty years down the road.

I still can't get over the 'dredging up the painful past' comment.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Guest]

Quote

>How is Bush dredging up the past when Kerry's out there
>campaigning as a War Hero?

Please post a single link where Kerry, himself, called himself a war hero. Claiming he did is like claiming that Bush called himself a war hero in Iraq because he landed on a carrier.

I agree - that's just rhetoric. But it's also crass to assume that Kerry is somehow better-qualified to make defense policy by virtue of his (short) military service. If anything, his membership in military-oriented committees on the Hill (was he a member of SASC?) would qualify him better, because he would, to paraphrase von Bismarck, have seen "the sausages being made".

Shit, by that definition, St Hillary is better qualified!

Saint Hillary! Save us!!!

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[SkydiverRick 0]

Kerry is a lying, two-faced, hypocritical Northeast Liberal, and that's the worst kind (or the best, depending on your political stripe). I know that makes him an ideal Massachussets politician (like his butt-buddy, Ted Kennedy), but that doesn't mean the rest of us want him as a president.