stitchless canopy line sets (possible?)

[freeflyfree 0]

Hi everyone!, Q: Is it posible to build canopy line sets with out the aid of a sewing machine?, well even if you have to stitch them by hand?

Thanks,
Felipe.

--
Blue Skies
NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[fcajump 164]

Well... I think one of our number has a stichless locked finger trap technique... If you used that for the end-loops on non-cascaded lines, you could then loop them through at the line-attach points on the canopy and feed the other end-loop onto the link.

So, yes... I suspect it is do-able... but... WHY?

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

Hi everyone!, Q: Is it posible to build canopy line sets with out the aid of a sewing machine?, well even if you have to stitch them by hand?

Thanks,
Felipe.

Just to be clear, do you mean creating the lineset from a spool of line without using a sewing machine?

Or do you mean a lineset that can be installed without a sewing machine?

I have seen some Precision products have linesets that can be installed without any sewing at all, but a sewing machine was used while building the lineset.

[freeflyfree 0]

Build them from a spool, cascaded preferably, none cascaded seems easier, what knot would you use?

Felipe

--
Blue Skies
NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[JerryBaumchen 1,471]

Hi Felipe,

Yes, it is quite easy to do using the Jump Shack method of 'locking' the finger-trap in the line.

I believe that a guy who posts here as Renaldo (sp? ) in Brazil does them this way.

And I understand that the Jump Shack uses this method on one of their canopies. You might drop them an email about it.

You just have to spend some time on what order to do the 'locking' so that it will work.

JerryBaumchen

PS) As to someone asking why: Because you might not have the proper sewing machine.

[freeflyfree 0]

Thanks, I was picturing the method (jump shack's) already in my head: loop/lock A, then B And next fingertrap the cascade and last loop/lock bottom end....mmmm

As to why do I ask, well, we don't have any riggers where I come from, (third world country)

Will continue to educate me in the subject, thanks,

Felipe.

--
Blue Skies
NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[JohnRich 4]

You can bar tack line joints with a household machine - you don't need anything fancy.

Knots can cause sliders to hang up and get caught on things - smooth fingertrap joints are better.

Joints which are not bar-tacked can slip undone when tension is removed, like when carrying the chute in from the landing area, or during certain stages of packing. I don't recommend it.

Get some advice on how to build a proper fingertrap joint, how to cut the line, use of fids, effect on length, etc.

[JerryBaumchen 1,471]

Hi John,

These are not knots. Grab some spectra line & make up a sample, pull it tight & you will see that it has no bulk.

JerryBaumchen

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

You can bar tack line joints with a household machine - you don't need anything fancy.

Knots can cause sliders to hang up and get caught on things - smooth fingertrap joints are better.

Joints which are not bar-tacked can slip undone when tension is removed, like when carrying the chute in from the landing area, or during certain stages of packing. I don't recommend it.

Get some advice on how to build a proper fingertrap joint, how to cut the line, use of fids, effect on length, etc.

+1 to what John said about knots that the slider will cross.

And even if you have only a common household zigzag machine that has nothing approaching a bartack, you can still use it to sew the fingertraps.

Looking at the Precision lineset I mentioned earlier, they don't use a bartack. They had a wide open zigzag stitch that went the entire length of the fingertrapped line. By "wide open" I mean that the stitch was about as long as it was wide - it wasn't the tight little bundle you see from a bartack.

So with most any home zigzag machine, you can secure the fingertraps with sewing.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

These are not knots. Grab some spectra line & make up a sample, pull it tight & you will see that it has no bulk.

I was referring to this statement: "non cascaded seems easier, what knot would you use?"
That sure sounds like he's talking about tying knots to me...

[JerryBaumchen 1,471]

Hi John,

But later he says:

Quote

Thanks, I was picturing the method (jump shack's) already in my head: loop/lock A, then B And next fingertrap the cascade and last loop/lock bottom end....mmmm

Try not to cherry-pick words; look at the totality of the discussion.

JerryBaumchen

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Try not to cherry-pick words; look at the totality of the discussion.

He mentioned two things: knots, and fingertraps. It wasn't clear that the fingertrap idea superseded the knot idea. Thus, I responded to the knot idea. That's not cherry-picking - it's responding to what he wrote with useful information. And since he seems to be someone trying to do rigging, without any rigging training, without any rigging knowledge, and without the proper equipment, I think any information at all could be important for him. You may have been making assumptions about what he was going to do, without really knowing for sure.

[riggerpaul 1]

Even though you can use no-sew techniques with some types of line, there was still a noticeable lump even in the 725 micro I just tried.

I fear a slider would still cause wear on a cascade built that way.

I've tried making no-sew loops in Dacron line, and it was, at best, really difficult. And it was quite bulky too.

If he has even a home zigzag machine, I think that's the far better route.

[freeflyfree 0]

Thank you, Thank you, you guys have given me many important points, knots as a potencial cause of a
malfunctions, and most importantly the option of using a household sewing machine (better yet if I go to a car upholstery shop, they have heavyduty machines).
Jump Shack's method is great for field repairs.


Well, once again, thanks,

freeflyfree

--
Blue Skies
NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[riggerrob 643]

You don't need a heavy-duty sewing machine to sew line sets.
In the worst-case scenario, the upholstery shop leaves its "leather" needle installed and shreds your line set.

I built two canopies with a PFAFF 230, which is the smallest, home machine that will pull E-Thread. Its zig-zag function is good for mimicing a bar-tack stitch. My PFAFF 230 was also great for sewing simple patches on canopies. It only fumbled when it got into thick canopy seams, with V-tapes, line attachment tapes, etc.

[freeflyfree 0]

LOL, thanks riggerrob, was laughin imagining the potential catastrophic failure of the whole thing thanks to the shop's leather needle.

Freeflyfree

--
Blue Skies
NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[erdnarob 1]

Yes it is possible but at higher costs and weight. When a suspension line comes from the riser (attached by a knot) to the attachment point (A line for instance) at the canopy and connected there by an appropriate knot, this line is thread inside the longitudinal seam and get out at the B attachment point. Then it goes to the risers, another knot and it's back to the C attachment point, goes inside the seam to the D attachment point then goes inside the lateral seam to the next D attachment point and so on... That way, the suspension line inside the seams acts as a reinforcement. You get then a continuous line construction. That method was used before for round army parachute (though with stitching). With some imagination you can rig the whole canopy with a single continuous line. Now, the actual design could also be done without using a sewing machine. You will have to use knots and glue.
One thing to remember, a finger trap is self sufficient as long as there is a tension on the line. When a force is applied on a line, the finger trap squeezes the part of the line inside hard enough it cannot move.
The bar tack is there more to secure the position of the finger trap than to resist to the applied tension.
Try it yourself : have a suspension line, make a loop, do a finger trap of 3 inches or more, attach the loop to a solid anchorage and pull at the other end of the line. I bet you that nothing will move and the finger trap will remain intact.

Imagination is better than knowledge
Albert Einstein

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Beatnik 2]

I have seen the stitchless fingertrap method used on a lineset of a Firebolt. Sure it can be done. Something that hasn't been mentioned is that knots reduce the strength of the line. In the Poynter Manuals it has the reduction on a chart but this knot wasn't around then. It would be interesting to see what the reduction would be.

[riggerrob 643]

I have used Jump Shack's stitch-less method to replace lower steering lines on dozens of canopies. They all lasted another 300 or 400 jumps.
JS's method is much better than knots because it leaves smooth cascades, which are unlikely to interfer with sliders descending.
At arm's length, the only difference between the JS method - and sewn fingertraps - is the colour of the thread.

[theonlyski 8]

Quote

Yes it is possible but at higher costs and weight. When a suspension line comes from the riser (attached by a knot) to the attachment point (A line for instance) at the canopy and connected there by an appropriate knot, this line is thread inside the longitudinal seam and get out at the B attachment point. Then it goes to the risers, another knot and it's back to the C attachment point, goes inside the seam to the D attachment point then goes inside the lateral seam to the next D attachment point and so on... That way, the suspension line inside the seams acts as a reinforcement. You get then a continuous line construction.

What kinda labor would you charge to replace THAT lineset?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[erdnarob 1]

A lot of money since that would require many hours of highly specialized labor. But I have seen at least one case where it has been done almost the way I have described... it was an experimental parachute which has been jumped with success.
""""""One day scientists will maybe be able to modify super spider genetics and program them to spin an entire canopy including lines and steering lines and ...using a single thread. Wouldn't it be nice ?????
Anybody can dream. Such canopy would be the lightest, the strongest and without a stitch including a minimum volume.""""""
The thread of a spider is quite more stronger than its weight equivalent in steel or any known material
.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[theonlyski 8]

Quote

A lot of money since that would require many hours of highly specialized labor. But I have seen at least one case where it has been done almost the way I have described... it was an experimental parachute which has been jumped with success.
""""""One day scientists will maybe be able to modify super spider genetics and program them to spin an entire canopy including lines and steering lines and ...using a single thread. Wouldn't it be nice ?????
Anybody can dream. Such canopy would be the lightest, the strongest and without a stitch including a minimum volume.""""""
The thread of a spider is quite more stronger than its weight equivalent in steel or any known material
.

Good luck untangling those lines after a cutaway.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[fcajump 164]

Quote

"One day scientists will maybe be able to modify super spider genetics and program them to spin an entire canopy including lines and steering lines and ...using a single thread. Wouldn't it be nice ????? "

And canopy wraps would no longer be a problem as the lines would simply cut through anything that got in their way... like the other canopy, lines, risers, jumpsuits, jumper...

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[erdnarob 1]

Not at all since as a person who is knitting a sweater with a single thread, the lines would have a certain thickness and volume.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

I have used Jump Shack's stitch-less method to replace lower steering lines on dozens of canopies. They all lasted another 300 or 400 jumps.

I have no doubt it works and on steering lines you don't have the same forces applied to them as you do with main suspension lines. So I would still like to see what the reduction in strength is using this method.

Quote

JS's method is much better than knots because it leaves smooth cascades, which are unlikely to interfer with sliders descending.

The method is a type of knot. It might be a little different compared to other knots but it is essentially a knot and will have similar drawbacks. It might not interfere with sliders the way other knots do but looping the line back on itself and changing the direction of the fibres has to reduce the lines strength.

Quote

At arm's length, the only difference between the JS method - and sewn fingertraps - is the colour of the thread.

I seem to recall from a few years ago that JS stopped using them on some of their canopies for some reason that I can't recall at the moment and went back to sewn fingertraps. So I think there is more to it than the colour of the thread.