Ron 10 #26 March 1, 2004 John. I am not turning a thread about a Landmine Treaty into a venue for you to bring up your Bush bashing. He did not sign it...And I don't think he should have. You want to disscuss THIS event feel free. Otherwise start a new Bush Bashing thread, or hijack on your own. (Ya know like you did with the "Those that served with Kerry" thread)"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #27 March 1, 2004 QuoteJohn. I am not turning a thread about a Landmine Treaty into a venue for you to bring up your Bush bashing. He did not sign it...And I don't think he should have. You want to disscuss THIS event feel free. Otherwise start a new Bush Bashing thread, or hijack on your own. (Ya know like you did with the "Those that served with Kerry" thread) I just corrected an error - that the ONLY nation that would comply would be the USA. You then brought up lies, so I gave you another one of GWBs to think about. If you want to discuss Bush's lies to veterans elsewhere, try the "politics" thread. So far you've ignored it there.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #28 March 1, 2004 QuoteI happen to know all about Claymores - they are large Scottish broadswords, with the blade modified to explode out in one direction. The blade is marked "This Side Toward Enemy (The English)" Now that is funny! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #29 March 1, 2004 QuoteIf you want to discuss Bush's lies to veterans elsewhere, try the "politics" thread. So far you've ignored it there. Inspite of what you may think of me...I can't be everywhere at once. I have this thing called a job...I have to do it since there are so many on welfare that need money. To be honest I am so sick of the lefts contiuned changing of ANY political topic here, that I don't really want to hear the same unsupported drivel over and over, and over, and over.. All these threads go like this. JohnRich: Bush sneezed today. Kallend: He lied!!! He said he was not allergic to anything. Ron : Uh dude he just sneezed...Rumor has it that he was using pepper at the time. PhillyKev: Pepper is a WMD...The US sold them to the White House! Or my Favorite. Ron: It rained today in FL. Kallend: Bush lied about the rain, the VA benefits and WMD's!!!! I need to work now....There is a family of four that needs new Nikes. After school I'll see if I can read you Bash Bush in that other thread..."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gary350 0 #30 March 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteI happen to know all about Claymores - they are large Scottish broadswords, with the blade modified to explode out in one direction. The blade is marked "This Side Toward Enemy (The English)" Now that is funny! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fudd 0 #31 March 1, 2004 Why use mines, when onw can use cluster bombs There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #32 March 1, 2004 QuoteWhy use mines, when onw can use cluster bombs Do you drive nails with a screwdriver? never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #33 March 1, 2004 An example of how stupid shit like this can come back to bite us on the ass is how we can no longer carry pepper spray on operations because it is now considered to violate our policy of not using chemical weapons. There are times when it can be very useful. We carried it in Haiti. It's helpful when trying to use the appropriate level of force for a particular situation. If I can control a situation by spraying someone in the eyes with pepper spray, which causes no permanent damage, instead of having to bash their head in or shoot them, that's a good thing. The decision concerning land mines was a good one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #34 March 1, 2004 QuoteAn example of how stupid shit like this can come back to bite us on the ass is how we can no longer carry pepper spray on operations because it is now considered to violate our policy of not using chemical weapons. There are times when it can be very useful. Excellent point. The whole concept is absurd if you think about it. I can't spray this dude with OC spray, a less than lethal option, but I can beat the shit out of him with my metal ASP until he complies or can no longer run because all the bones in his legs are broken. Besides, your arm gets REALLY tired by the end of the day after you've swung that ASP around all day"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #35 March 1, 2004 I refuse to sign it also. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fudd 0 #36 March 1, 2004 Is pepperspray classified as a chemical weapon? What about maze? Dammit, we got thousands of drunken girls wandering around downtown with chemical weapons....! There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #37 March 1, 2004 As far as the military goes, it is considered a "chemical" weapon. I'm guessing it only applies to those falling under the Geneva Convention. Those girls downtown can carry all they want but the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan (or back in Haiti) cannot. Crazy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdgregory 0 #38 March 1, 2004 QuoteAlmost every President tries to get the benefits in their term while passing along the costs or consequences to others. Name ANY that haven't. Um, there was that one President that did that thing that time in reference to that place where that stuff was going on. You remember? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #39 March 1, 2004 On that topic...anyone know why exactly are hollow points banned for military use? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #40 March 1, 2004 The point of the "ball" ammo is just to knock you down and incapacitate you. Not to kill or mortally wound you. Take the enemy out of action so they can't engage you. Hollow point type ammo is designed to rip, tear, and destroy tissue. It's meant to kill first and incapacitate second. We're such a kind, gentle, humanitarian force these days. Nobody else is but we sure the hell are. The enemy has more people in their favor than our guys. You can see that from this forum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crzjp20 0 #41 March 2, 2004 QuoteThe point of the "ball" ammo is just to knock you down and incapacitate you. Not to kill or mortally wound you. Take the enemy out of action so they can't engage you. Hollow point type ammo is designed to rip, tear, and destroy tissue. It's meant to kill first and incapacitate second. We're such a kind, gentle, humanitarian force these days. Nobody else is but we sure the hell are. The enemy has more people in their favor than our guys. You can see that from this forum. Yup have to agree here. A hollow point can havea 1 inch entry wound and a 8 inch exit wound.... very veyr messy. And yeah we are very nice, it almost hurts sometimes how nice we are. But hey that is the way we are trained to be so that is what plays out.....-------------------------------------------------- Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #42 March 2, 2004 QuoteOn that topic...anyone know why exactly are hollow points banned for military use? Try the Geneva Convention."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #43 March 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteOn that topic...anyone know why exactly are hollow points banned for military use? Try the Geneva Convention. Well that is no good reason at all then. The Geneva and other international conventions are only applicable if and when they suit the current US administration (think camp X-Ray) --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #44 March 2, 2004 I love that logic. The military, when they go to work, has the job of killing people. Of course, they have to use ball ammunition. Our police force, when confronted with deadly force, has the job of keeping as many people as possible alive. Of course, they use hollow points. [I realize cops use hollow points in part because they reduce through and throughs, and Geneva requires ball; I just love how these things work out]witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #45 March 2, 2004 Quote(think camp X-Ray) That's a whole different ball of wax and has nothing to do with hollow point bullets and the Geneva Convention. Which is adhered to by the US Gov't regardless of which political party is in office."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #46 March 2, 2004 Edited for inaccuracies. move along, there's nothing to see here"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #47 March 2, 2004 My understanding is that most use hollowpoint ammunition. Supposedly the reason for switching to it was reduced liability for through and throughs and deflections.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #48 March 2, 2004 QuoteThat's a whole different ball of wax and has nothing to do with hollow point bullets and the Geneva Convention. Which is adhered to by the US Gov't regardless of which political party is in office. Well, yes and no. You are right the US has adhered to the point regarding ammunition, but it has at least "bent" the convention in regard to Camp X-ray. There seems to be a general tendency within the current administration to follow international agreements and conventions selectively. GWB has made a habit of that: International Court, Kyoto etc. etc. etc. The US has lost a lot of credibility in the last few years. Always demanding nations to "behave" (eg. China) or complaining about "unfair" trade, but when the international "rules" do not suit the US and that goes from Trade rules (the US has some of the worst trade barriers / subsidies in e.g. Agriculture and Steel) to international law - then it demands to be above it all.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crzjp20 0 #49 March 2, 2004 yeah i have heard that too about the hollow points with police. But i have been told by a friend who is an officer that they uses hollow points for if the get into close quarters shoot out casue the hollow points will not richrichade (way of on spelling sorry) around like ball will.... just what i have been told dont know if i believe it or not.....-------------------------------------------------- Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #50 March 2, 2004 Quote I don't know of any police force in the US that authorizes the use of hollow points by it's officers. You can just imagine the field day a lawyer could have with that in a disputed police shooting. Hmmm...I don't have any idea what's typical, but I was working in the local ER, when a burglarly suspect was brought in with multiple gunshot wounds. The suspect/victim was extremely combative and out of control initially. Eventually the blood loss mellowed him out. Since he'd been shot something like four times in the torso, it was kind of extraordinary that he had so much fight in him. I asked one of the cops what he'd been shot with. I distinctly remember a Police officer showing me the 9mm hollow points in his spare magazine and saying "These." I'm not a big gun nut, but it seems to me that you'd want police to use hollow points. I mean, either deadly force is appropriate, or not. Hollow points have better stopping power, and are less likely to ricochet or pass through a wall and hit an innocent victim. I can't imagine why a police force wouldn't not only authorize, but endorse hollow point rounds. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
