RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it?

[skinnyshrek 0]

I say go for it. Seen many people like yourself, either kill themselves or really fuck themselves. They acted the same way. We have someone at the dz now, same attitude, he was about 5ft away from killing himself this week-end. You are just like the rest of them, a death or femur away. And when it does happen believe me we will post on here. You just add to the statistics. Kinda cool really, maybe i should show you the femurs i have on tape. So ignore all the pricks beforehand and do what you want. Its awesome to see when it finally catches up with you.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[kris2extreme 0]

  Quote

I agree it is an aggressive canopy for my skill level, but so was the Spectre 135 on my 32nd and beyond jumps.

That single sentence sums up both threads. If you think it is an aggressive canopy for your skill level, then it is. Your canopy should match your skill level. If it's above your skill level, then it's not the canopy you should be on.

Honestly, if you were that confident of yourself under that canopy, you wouldn't be running it into the ground on an internet forum. The fact that you can't leave it alone is enough to show most of us that you aren't under a canopy you can properly control, and the sub-par landing videos that you posted to gloat about only reinforced that.

I'm a light guy, i jump a small parachute, and don't have anywhere near as many jumps as people think I do by watching me land. I play it smart, I learn the canopy, and I learn from the other canopy pilots who are better than me. There's way more to a parachute than being able to land it safely under good conditions. Can you land it in a 15mph downwind safely? Can you land it in a 15mph crosswind safely? Can you land it on the rear risers? What about with a broken line?

After watching your straight-in landings into the wind, I would bet the farm that you can't. So learn to fly a parachute first, then worry about the sizing and speed.

[airtwardo 7]

  Quote

I say go for it. Seen many people like yourself, either kill themselves or really fuck themselves. They acted the same way. We have someone at the dz now, same attitude, he was about 5ft away from killing himself this week-end. You are just like the rest of them, a death or femur away. And when it does happen believe me we will post on here. You just add to the statistics. Kinda cool really, maybe i should show you the femurs i have on tape. So ignore all the pricks beforehand and do what you want. Its awesome to see when it finally catches up with you.

It's called : Thinning the herd, a natural selection kind of thing.

Someone asks advise from those more experienced but gives every possible reason, that we've all heard ad nauseum, NOT to follow that advise.

If I've learned nothing else, it's that the sport doesnt care how good you 'think' you are.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skinnyshrek 0]

I care about people who will listen, Every skydive i learn something. I wish we could get across to some of the people about canopy progression. Speed is fucking awesome, But what is better than that is learning so you can enjoy that speed without endangering yourself or others. Man, you have been in this sport longer than me, now i feel young again.

Cheers

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[pilotdave 0]

If you think you need a smaller canopy to get a good flare, you really should get canopy coaching. Unless there's something wrong with a particular canopy, you can get a good flare out of just about any canopy at any size. Some canopies make it easier than others (sabre2 vs spectre, for example). But if you aren't getting a good flare on a larger canopy, coaching will probably help. Downsizing will probably hurt, since it will just make the timing of your flare more critical.

You might find that the cobalt gets a better flare than a spectre. Have you tried a cobalt 135? I doubt the difference in the flare is due to the 105 vs 135 as much as it's due to the difference in the flight characteristics of those two canopies.

Face it. You like jumping a canopy that's too small for you because you like to tell people how small a canopy you jump. It's a guy thing.

Dave

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Ok, I've admitted this in the last thread and also this one, but I know I am increasing my risk. Has anyone ever considered that I posted on here because I think my downsize is TOO aggressive? Not just aggressive, but TOO aggressive?

Maybe I'm looking for advice to see if it really is TOO aggressive vs aggressive? I admit, I feel confident under the canopy, I'm not scared of it, but maybe I really don't understand the true risk category that I've put myself in.

What if I'm asking for help and all I'm getting, is shit on? Everyone knows that it's human nature to be defiant. And by having a whole bunch of people tell me that I can't jump it, and I will die under it, it makes me feel as though I'm out to prove something and want to jump it to prove that.

I have and am still considering upsizing, but don't know yet. I agree I am defensive, and probably as with about 99% of all of you, I am pretty quiet in real life. The internet and keyboard give us all an escape to be whoever the hell we want. I know that I am not the first person to do this, and I know I will not be the last. I have a sister that just started jumping and I'm trying to tell her not to do what I did? How do you think that's going?

On another note, consider what we as "younger' jumpers have beyond our instructors for info/advice. The gear manufactures making recommendations. Here's some examples:

Take a look at what a 100 lb novice "should" be jumping for a Spectre
http://performancedesigns.com/products.asp?product=sp
So for me, I "should" have started on a 150.

I know this will be controversial, but see my point:
http://atairaerodynamics.com/FAQ.html#one
So me having an EXIT weight of 135 lbs, puts me at 1.3 on a 105. That's mid range for a beginner.

How about a Nitro: Check what the W/L on a 108 is for a person weighing 135 lbs and 100-199 jumps?
http://hiperusa.com/files/wingloading.pdf

So, as you can clearly see, "WE" are being told by the gear manufactures that this is ok. I would be happy to get more examples, but the first 2 apply DIRECTLY to me, and the third was just another example to throw in. So, if you consider that my instructors, S&TA, and DZO approve, as well as the manufacture? What would that say to you?

I fully expected flak for posting the videos of my terrible landings, but I'm not sure everyone understand why I post for info. As far as jump numbers, I avoided saying it simply because it would take the thread completely off topic and that's not what I wanted. So for everyone who's curious, 130 jumps is the magic number. DSE was dead on with his numbers above, minus the jumps. (Wonder if he talked to my buddy Micheal from the other post?)

Anyways, maybe take a second to consider a new person's point of view without just snapping back with a response.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[diablopilot 2]

  Quote

  Quote

The solution is simple, Brother. Stop asking for people's opinions if you're just going to do it your way anyway. Go do it your way and leave it off the boards. Problem solved.

Chris, in this thread just over a year ago, you were irritated with people giving you grief about jumping a 135@40 jumps, now you're somewhat wondering the same thing about you jumping a 105 @ around 150 jumps. With an exit weight (If I recall correctly) of around 130lbs, is your S&TA is OK with you jumping a high performance 105 canopy?
Moving from the Manta 288 down to a 135 Spectre in about a year isn't anywhere near as aggressive as going from the 135 Spectre to a 105 Cobalt, even though you're a very lightweight guy.
God, what I'd give to weigh 115 again.

Bingo. It's your history that has people suggesting that you're risking too much. I see you breaking an ankle on that canopy. I hope not, but I fear that's what it's gonna be. Some of my opinion is based on what I've seen in 10 years, some from working with students, and some because I broke my own ankle at twice your jumps because I was "better than the average".

By allowing someone to convince you that the COMP cobalt is right for you they have allowed you to break just about every rule of downsizing.

You skipped at least one size.
You went from a 7 cell to a 9 cell.
You went to an elliptical planform of a smaller size.

At some point you'll be caught in a tight situation without the skill to handle it, and that's where you're gonna get hurt.

At some point too soon you'll think you have it down, and decide to spice things up, and that's where you'll get hurt.

None of this is new, and there are plenty of examples of other's who "were better than the rest" who sadly and painfully learned they were wrong.

So keep on keeping on if your DZ and instructors are willing to let you risk it, but don't come here acting surprised when people question or criticize you. That boat won't float here.


Edit to add that my post was directed more as a reply to Chris than DSE.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Clarification: The Comp Cobalt was jumped once...I bought a standard Cobalt

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[skydude2000 3]

I'm just curious what the big epidemic with downsizing is about. Why do we associate it with jump numbers so often? If some skygod has 10,000+ jumps, does that mean he should be flying a bed sheet? I don't care how many jumps someone's got or how many years in the sport or how current they are. The ground ALWAYS wins, and it only takes a split second to fuck up, and then you're out of the sport for who knows how long, or even indefinitely. Why would any of us want that? We all look out for each other, and that's one of the best things about this sport. But why tempt fate because someone else tells you when you're ready? Only YOU can tell you when you're ready. If there's any doubt at all in your mind, or in the minds of your instructors, save yourself an ambulance ride, and wait. Take it from someone whose had one.

Jump safe,

Skydude.

PULL!! or DIE!!

[drdive 0]

The original poster -

  Quote

  Quote

I say go for it. Seen many people like yourself, either kill themselves or really fuck themselves. They acted the same way. We have someone at the dz now, same attitude, he was about 5ft away from killing himself this week-end. You are just like the rest of them, a death or femur away. And when it does happen believe me we will post on here. You just add to the statistics. Kinda cool really, maybe i should show you the femurs i have on tape. So ignore all the pricks beforehand and do what you want. Its awesome to see when it finally catches up with you.

It's called : Thinning the herd, a natural selection kind of thing.

Someone asks advise from those more experienced but gives every possible reason, that we've all heard ad nauseum, NOT to follow that advise.

If I've learned nothing else, it's that the sport doesnt care how good you 'think' you are.

Yeah - In my business we have a name for people like the original poster -
-
-
-
-
Patients!!!!

I hope you defy the odds, but you worry me.

Doc

"We saved your gear. Now you can sell it when you get out of the hospital and upsize!!" "K-Dub"

"

[kris2extreme 0]

  Quote

Take a look at what a 100 lb novice "should" be jumping for a Spectre
http://performancedesigns.com/products.asp?product=sp
So for me, I "should" have started on a 150.

I know this will be controversial, but see my point:
http://atairaerodynamics.com/FAQ.html#one
So me having an EXIT weight of 135 lbs, puts me at 1.3 on a 105. That's mid range for a beginner.

How about a Nitro: Check what the W/L on a 108 is for a person weighing 135 lbs and 100-199 jumps?
http://hiperusa.com/files/wingloading.pdf

So, as you can clearly see, "WE" are being told by the gear manufactures that this is ok. I would be happy to get more examples, but the first 2 apply DIRECTLY to me, and the third was just another example to throw in. So, if you consider that my instructors, S&TA, and DZO approve, as well as the manufacture? What would that say to you?

I would say that the chart is somewhat correct. PD recommends a spectre 135 for an exit weight of 128lbs. That is listed as an intermediate.

HiPerUSA also states...

  Quote

Remember, when choosing a canopy it is all about what suits you; going fast under canopy is not for everybody!

They then go to say that the maximum canopy size for an exit weight of 130lbs and 100-199 jumps should be a 108. Now you have an exit weight of 135, so how exactly are you falling within those guidelines? Oh that's right... you're not.

A 1.3 wingloading is a blanket-statement wingloading for someone with around 300 jumps, this is of course taking into consideration that you are current on canopy control. Your 130 jumps over 2 years is hardly the making of an ultra-current jumper. And the fact that you "have and am still considering upsizing" is the perfect indicator that you should.

  Quote

What if I'm asking for help and all I'm getting, is shit on? Everyone knows that it's human nature to be defiant. And by having a whole bunch of people tell me that I can't jump it, and I will die under it, it makes me feel as though I'm out to prove something and want to jump it to prove that.

Nobody will feel any difference after you pound in because you were too stupid to take out a reasonable thought process into the preservation of your own life and limb. If there is one thing about this sport, it certainly weeds out the people who shouldn't be in it, so keep it up.

[davelepka 4]

  Quote

So, as you can clearly see, "WE" are being told by the gear manufactures that this is ok.

No, YOU are reading things the way you want.

If you want to be told something by a gear manufacturer, trying called them on the phone. Ask them if they would reccomend a 105 at 1.3 for a guy with 130 jumps. Just for fun leave out the fact that it's eplitical. See what they say.

As for your new direction, I call bullshit. None of what you said previous backed up the idea that maybe you thought you were in over your head.

At this stage, it looks liek your tyring to find a back door out of this because you appear to be backed into a corner.

Do something smart and prove me wrong. Actually stop jumping the canopy. Today. Upsize and jump something you have more control over.

[GreyLake 0]

O, I think folks gave details in the last thread, regarding those landings of yours; you merely chose to ignore them--not what you wanted to hear, you know?

I saw: "The first one you flared late and and pretty much stalled the canopy... the second two you flare completely unevenly.

Maybe keep your knees and feet together aswell."

This one, a little later, granted, but clearly people are able: "The 2 landing videos you showed honestly were NOT that good and really did not give me confidence for you staying out of trouble. The light wind one showed poor landing flare judgment and the others were in higher winds which can make a landing look much better. Your Ground speed is slower then the actual speed through the air so it is easier to stand up."

You know, I have no illusions about altering your ideas; that I clearly can't do. But I do enjoy watching your interesting psyche at work.

Let's go to candy mountain.

[dragon2 2]

Funny you not mentioning your own reason for downsizing here, ie, the canopy will collapse with a low WL

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[phoenixlpr 0]

  Quote

Funny you not mentioning your own reason for downsizing here, ie, the canopy will collapse with a low WL

True myths never die.

[Baksteen 84]

  Quote

You skipped at least one size.
You went from a 7 cell to a 9 cell.
You went to an elliptical planform of a smaller size.

Totally independent of the subject of the thread, I see a "don't-know-I-don't-know" thingy here.

Why is going from a 7-cell to a 9-cell bad?
Just because the downsizer changes more than one variable at the same time, or something else I am not aware of?
Things can think of:
A nine cell reacts differently to toggle inputs (more/less agressive?)
A nine-cell has a different rate of descent (but the same could be said between separate "types"/brands of nine cells?)

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[mnealtx 0]

It's not that going from a 7 cell to a 9 cell (or vice versa) is *bad*, per se... but it's recommended that you only change one variable at a time and work down progressively through the different sizes, not skipping sizes.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[phoenixlpr 0]

  Quote

Why is going from a 7-cell to a 9-cell bad?
Just because the downsizer changes more than one variable at the same time, or something else I am not aware of?
Things can think of:
A nine cell reacts differently to toggle inputs (more/less agressive?)
A nine-cell has a different rate of descent (but the same could be said between separate "types"/brands of nine cells?)

I can give you an example. A friend of mine jumping a Spectre 210 on regular basis, exit weight about 115 kg. I have seen his first jump on a Springo160. I got a video about it. I did not looked so bad at the first. I have seen a full stall on reviewing his landing from video. I think he got lucky he got the Springo stalled with his usual single motion flare-stab. He has landed on his feet and complaing that the canopy did not give any lift.... Was there a lession here?

[dragon2 2]

I don't buy the 7cell vs 9cell argument either... I think your friend was lucky he got away with flaring the specte like he did, probably because of his lack of weight. When i sold my spectre 150 to another jumper he tried the single stab flare and promptly went up a few feet looking very surprised. My spectre was way newer than the one he'd been jumping before and was in way better trim.
Also a spectre and a springo are very different canopies, a springo is a french stiletto type canopy and french canopies typically have a short toggle stroke so yeah real easy to stall it flaring like that. That's just stupid he should've figured that out higher up and besides going down so much (almost half!) in size and to a more hp canopy all at once is stupid in itself in my book regardless of weight. But AFAIK it has nothing to do with the number of cells.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[phoenixlpr 0]

  Quote

Also a spectre and a springo are very different canopies, a springo is a french stiletto type canopy and french canopies typically have a short toggle stroke so yeah real easy to stall it flaring like that.

Really? Please tell me more...

  Quote

That's just stupid he should've figured that out higher up and besides going down so much

How come? Without a visual reference? He was jumping with an ordinary altimeter.

[popsjumper 2]

Chris,
Please, guy. Please don't think anyone is "shitting on" you. The responses you are getting are by far and wide from people who care. Some replies may seem aggressive and the tone may come across as mean-spirited but please look past that and get to the meaning, the point and the intent of the replies and the information presented.

You have posted several indicators that say that you are downsizing too rapidly, downsizing with inadequate preparation, downsizing with inadequate knowledge and skill-sets and downsizing for the wrong reasons. Please step back and do a thorough re-evaluation.

Who knows? In the end, you may come to the same conclusions..but, IMHO, I hope not.


One bright spot is that in your later posts you seem to understand that maybe, just maybe, you aren't ready for this and that you are stepping away from the dependence on others telling you some of the "you'll be just fine" comments that, IMHO, are what you want to hear. You seem to be starting to take an honest look at yourself and your skill sets.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Andy_Copland 0]

That is some sobering reading.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[rmcvey 0]

Chris, we shared PM's already, but dude...there are guys here with thousdands and thousands of skydives, and who
have been in this sport before you even started high school.

Take a step back, and listen to them. You will get alot of kudos if you do...

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

  Quote

Just because you pulled it off (ie stood it up) doesn't make it a good landing.

Amen!!! This can't be said loud enough! I can't count the number of people who say some version of "get off my ass, I stood it up didn't it?"

I have personally stood up the following:

- Incredibly stupid 270 front-riser from way too low... slammed both toggles to full-flare and recovered from being in a full dive at less than 100' for a nice, tippy-toe landing.

- Equally stupid landing in a tiny area in high winds... 180-left-270-right toggle whips starting at about 300'. Perfect stand-up 10 feet short of being impaled by a rebar tent stake after pulling the dive out of my ass. The one person who saw it said "nice job... you lived!"

- Much less stupid, gentle 90-deg front riser turn, planed out at the right time but I was too busy geeking and my knees hit the peas... 1/4 second later my body was in superman position 1 foot above the ground, held the flare and ran it out. I have video proof of that one!

Bottom line: If someone says your landings suck, they're probably right. Standing it up/not dying are not the measure of a good pilot.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[DSE 5]

  Quote

Standing it up/not dying are not the measure of a good pilot.

Well said. I broke my heel on a standup landing.