Riggers and trust

[Freeflaw 0]

I got my reserve packed recently and was very surprised to find that when I put my rig on and tighten it down tightly that the bolt, which connects the cable and D ring, is almost all the way against the metal; there is hardly any excess cable (maybe half an inch when its really tight). Today I called the manufacturer and it turns out that my rigger apparently swapped the reserve cables from two different containers. Mine was replaced by a 2 inch shorter cable. I have shown it to various riggers and they are all suspicious of it but not overly concerned. I have been jumping the rig, making clear to everybody I am jumping with to leave their f****** hands of any part of my rig as well as getting two pin check on average per jump. Also I have had people look at the pin as the rig is tightend down as much as possible and as I contort my body in as many directions as possible (with the goal of putting as much tension on the pin as possible). ITs clear that I am less then happy with the situation and I don't need any alarmists screaming I am going to die. I am just curious if there are people out there that have had a really tight reserve cable and ideally the stories where that led to problems. Thx in advance

[Hellis 0]

Why did he swap cables?
Was it a misstake?

Have you talked to the rigger about it?
I would not be very happy about that situation, and im guessing the one that got your cable is not very happy either

[Jbag 0]

Did the manufacturer design it to have that cable? No, go get that shit fixed, you don't know all the possible outcomes if you have to use it
...

The slack is so you can shock load the pin while using it, as well as so if it gets bumped it doesn't pop immediately. Is it that hard to go talk to your rigger bout it?

IHYD

[stratostar 5]

You might as well take a 357 magnum, place one round in the chamber and spin it, place to head and pull trigger.

Ground that shit ASAP and get it replaced.

1. A DZO in Indiana used to have a number of naro student rigs, all of them had the same issue as you do, he was told repeatedly it was an issue and blew it off for months.... well in walked 3 big ass "linemen" built guys, I trained them, lucky for them, their one buddy was freaked out in class about having two out, so we spent a good deal of time reviewing what to do should you have to out.

Well guess what.... yea all three of those guys climbed out and the act of the climbout was enough to pull the pin just enough to deploy the reserve... yes the plane made 3 passes and all 3 had two out, two of them you could watch the reserve deploy and yank them off the strut and in turn pulling the static line as well, it was very interesting to watch to say the least.

2. There is a guy on here named "big fall" As a side note, Mr. Bigfall walked over to me just before he got on the plane and asked me what I thought about him using the rig in question, I told him the storie above and how big people in small rigs in not a good idea & can lead to a problem, if your going ahead to do it get a pin check!

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2334765;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

worth the read and to view the photos. A pin check will not expose the real problem, the pin gets pulled when you bend over and around to get out.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[davelepka 4]

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ITs clear that I am less then happy with the situation

I have been jumping the rig

I can see that you're new to jumping, so let this be your 'lesson' that the two statements above should never be used together again.

Circumstances beyond your control such as other jumpers, aircraft, or weather (all can be classified as your 'environment') and your own personal performance are all suspect to conspire againt you and kill you. Your rig, on the other hand is the one area you do have complete control over. It's a simple matter of not jumping gear that is not 100% airworthy and assembled to the manufacturers specifications.

This sport is all about risk management, and while you cannot guarantee that the rig will work, having it properly assembled and rigged will give you the best odds that the rig will perform as needed.

The slack in the reserve cable is there to allow for some 'wiggle room' in the case of extrreme loads on the harness or the ripcord housing. What this means is that the slack only does it's job when out-of-the-ordinary circumsatnces come up, and this is the last time you want an accidental reserve deployment.

Contact the rigger immediately. Have him locate your correct handle or order you a new one, and then have him make it his #1 priority to return your rig to it's original state.

[NovaTTT 2]

Have you spoken with your rigger? This should be your first step.

Ask him why he swapped ripcords and tell him you want your ripcord back, or a manufacturers replacement.

Swapping the ripcord should take about 3 minutes: one to insert the pin follower and remove the offending ripcord, one to insert the correct ripcord, and one to re-seal the rig.

And as Dave said, if your rig isn't safe to jump it's not airworthy. You shouldn't jump this rig until the problem is fixed.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[billvon 3,080]

We had a reserve popped by that scenario once. A hard opening stretched the housing _just_ enough, the swage bottomed out, the pin got pulled and the reserve deployed.

When properly installed the ripcord should have at least some slack at the handle end, usually 1" or more (heed the mfr's numbers there.) If there's no slack you'll have problems.

[riggerrob 643]

Yes, most reserve ripcords have at least one inch of slack, two inches is better, but more than three inches tends to leave the ball swage dangling below the bottom edge of the ripcord handle, which can create a snag hazard.

[Freeflaw 0]

> I have shown it to various riggers and they are all suspicious of it but not overly concerned

none of them have grounded it (we are talking master riggers a two different drop zones and various other experienced jumpers).

I have been jumping this rig for 50 jumps plus and there has not been any movement in the pin. MY biggest fear has been that a hard opening may in fact dislodge pin. However, under canopy there is more excess then when the mains in the bag.

p.s. see you in the incidents ;)

[jdathome 0]

How far is the reserve pin pushed into the closing loop? If the pin has a bevel, the bevel should be off the grommet. Only the straight part of the pin should be contacting the grommet. I inspected a rig with a similar problem and was able to gain roughly a half inch by pulling the pin back where it was supposed to be. This gave the jumper a little more slack in the cable.

One thing worth mentioning, the slack in the cable is not to prevent accidental reserve deployment should the reserve handle be bumped, or come out of its holder, or when you bend over to exit an aircraft. Yes, you need slack for these movements, but the reserve cable slack is there to prevent pin tension during main deployment. That means during the opening shock when the main inflates. That tug on the harness is what needs to be considered. If you think you are putting enough tension on the reserve ripcord while merely bending and twisting, you’re not. You need to have someone strong pull straight up on the main risers to simulate main deployment. Do not jump the rig if you’re not sure enough slack exists in the reserve cable.

Hope this helps?

Blues…

[NovaTTT 2]

I'm not sure if you're responding directly to me, as it doesn't seem to fit.

Regardless, while a MR can give your rig a "grounding", that's something you should be learning to do and doing for yourself.

If you find an aspect of your rig that makes it unsafe in that configuration, don't jump it until that issue is resolved. Your rigger or MR can give you advice all day, but at the end of the day, the rig is on your back.

A non-original/factory ripcord with a much too short terminal end (½") is an aspect that I would consider unsafe.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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A non-original/factory ripcord with a much too short terminal end (½") is an aspect that I would consider unsafe.

Doesn't that non-original, wrong sized reserve ripcord also violate the TSO?

Wouldn't that rig be illegal to jump?

Yes, I'm being a little picky, but it is one more consideration in whether or not to jump the rig before it's fixed.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[JerryBaumchen 1,446]

Hi joe,

Disclaimer: I hold a TSO-authorization to make ripcords.

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Doesn't that non-original, wrong sized reserve ripcord also violate the TSO?

Wouldn't that rig be illegal to jump?

In the purest ( and maybe not so purest ) sense, yes. The rigger installing/repacking/etc such a system with a non-certificated ripcord is ( IMO ) in violation.

The problem is that it is not always so easy to determine what is a TSO'd ripcord and what is not. Even the latest versions of the TSO do not have sufficient marking req'ments ( IMO ) to make it simple to determine.

And there are some well known names in this sport who have the equipment and who make reserve ripcords without holding a TSO-authorization. I will not name them; if anyone cares they should ask the person making/supplying the ripcord regarding its legality.

IMO, this is a problem and not an easy one to resolve.

For the rig in question in this thread: I would not jump that setup until that ripcord is changed out.

Just my $0.02, it's worth what you paid for it.

JerryBaumchen

[RIGGER 0]

The rig you are talking about should NOT be jumped till the ripcord you jump now will be replaced with the h/c mfg. original reserve ripcord in the right size.

You put yourself in a Risk, your fellow skydivers & the aircraft / pilot from exit to landing.

You might find yourself with your reserve out in the aircraft, at the door, freefall or under you main

What is the big deal to get an original mfg. ripcord?

The riggers told you that jumping like that with the ball all the up to the top handle leg should go to some education.

I saw more of that in the market & also saw a h/c which used a Yoke C ripcord on a yoke A h/c & the ball & shank end was at the hip area.

Be Smart & Safe.

[Freeflaw 0]

problem was solved today... thx for the input everybody

[NovaTTT 2]

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A non-original/factory ripcord with a much too short terminal end (½") is an aspect that I would consider unsafe.

Doesn't that non-original, wrong sized reserve ripcord also violate the TSO?

Wouldn't that rig be illegal to jump?

Yes, I'm being a little picky, but it is one more consideration in whether or not to jump the rig before it's fixed.

Joe, I consider this to be a "like part" exchange and IME you'd be hard-pressed to find a field rigger who would flinch at exchanging a worn, damaged, mis-sized or "jumper wants a different handle" ripcord for another.

It takes some common sense, practical sense and experience, to be sure, and what the OP describes, for example, is a case where those aspects were apparently absent. And that's not a good thing.

As Jerry mentioned, it's a grey area in terms of manufacturing and marking, but IMO the language about exchanging like parts covers your question so the TSO should remain inviolate.

.02

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Quote

Quote

A non-original/factory ripcord with a much too short terminal end (½") is an aspect that I would consider unsafe.

Doesn't that non-original, wrong sized reserve ripcord also violate the TSO?

Wouldn't that rig be illegal to jump?

Yes, I'm being a little picky, but it is one more consideration in whether or not to jump the rig before it's fixed.

Joe, I consider this to be a "like part" exchange and IME you'd be hard-pressed to find a field rigger who would flinch at exchanging a worn, damaged, mis-sized or "jumper wants a different handle" ripcord for another.

It takes some common sense, practical sense and experience, to be sure, and what the OP describes, for example, is a case where those aspects were apparently absent. And that's not a good thing.

As Jerry mentioned, it's a grey area in terms of manufacturing and marking, but IMO the language about exchanging like parts covers your question so the TSO should remain inviolate.

.02

I understand the "like part" concept. I also understand the grey are of manufacturing and marking.

And replacing worn or damaged (or different handle) is not an issue. I've had to replace one when the cable was starting to fray - several RSL pulls had done a job on it.

But if it is the wrong size (length), then is it "like" enough?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[JerryBaumchen 1,446]

Hi Nova,

First, I am fine with anyone who might disagree with me on just about anything.

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I consider this to be a "like part" exchange

Since a ripcord is listed as a seperate component in the TSO standards it should not be considered in the same category as a grommet in a container.

The ripcord is a seperate component and must have its own TSO-authorization. If not does not have the necessary TSO marking, it is not a certificated component.

Just my thinking on this,

JerryBaumchen

[NovaTTT 2]

Joe - I mentioned common sense, practical sense and experience in my last comments, and their apparent lack concerning the OP's problem.

But I'll just come right out and say it: The rigger who installed a ripcord that has ~½" play between the handle and the swage ball screwed up! Any rigger who changes a ripcord without definite reason and careful inspection has screwed up.

I'd like to know from the OP how it came to be the ripcord was swapped in the first place. Was it carelessness or was it a choice?

I can imagine it happening carelessly, but I don't understand it happening. The way I rig and was taught to rig, there should never be more than one reserve handle/ripcord with any given rig!

Regardless of the cause, however, the rigger should have caught the problem on his post-AIR inspection.

That's .06 total.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I got my reserve packed recently and was very surprised to find that when I put my rig on and tighten it down tightly that the bolt, which connects the cable and D ring, is almost all the way against the metal; there is hardly any excess cable (maybe half an inch when its really tight).

One of my friends had a reserve deployment on exit due to that. IIRC there were broken lines and broken bones involved.

You need to replace the ripcord _before_ jumping.

[NovaTTT 2]

Jerry, I understand your position and certainly you have me outclassed in terms of experience, knowlege, skill and . . . well, most everything but good looks!!!

I don't claim to be right, but it is my understanding that the reserve ripcord assembly is interchangeable as a like part at the rigger's discretion.

That's .02 more Internet cents, which I believe is equivalent to a nano-dollar.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Agreed on the common sense, practical sense and experience (although I only have a little of that) issues.

And I was asking a fairly "nit-picky" question.

Thanks for your thoughts and input.

And the $0.08 (total so far as best I can count)

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[riggerrob 643]

" ... I don't claim to be right, but it is my understanding that the reserve ripcord assembly is interchangeable as a like part at the rigger's discretion. ...

........................................................................

I forget the details, but since it has been a few decades since I last wrote an FAA exam, I vaguely remember it being okay for FAA Master Riggers to interchange "similar TSOed components" (in reserves).

"Similar" includes checking them for compatibility with other components (e.g. ripcord housing length).

OTOH Canadian Rigger A training goes into great detail about how to measure replacement components for compatibility.
Canadian Rigger As are advised that they are allowed to install replacement components - from the same manufacturer - but installing replacement components from another manufacturer is a complex process best left to Rigger Bs (equivalent to FAA Master Rigger).

[JerryBaumchen 1,446]

Hi Nova,

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certainly you have me outclassed in terms of experience, knowlege, skill

Not really; I do know a few things but there is a whole bunch of stuff that I do not know. And I would bet that there are some things that I could learn from you.

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well, most everything but good looks!!!

Girls, Girls) Where are you when we need you?

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it is my understanding that the reserve ripcord assembly is interchangeable

Absolutely. But it cannot be changed for a non-certificated ripcord. And the replaced part must be functional. In this case, that is up for question. I'm just glad that the OP has now replaced it.

JerryBaumchen

[NovaTTT 2]

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Absolutely. But it cannot be changed for a non-certificated ripcord. And the replaced part must be functional.

We are in full accord in this regard.

Now - about those girls, if there's no video . . . . .

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73