Is Bush's use of 9/11 footage in campaign ads in poor taste?

[Deuce 1]

There is a great difference between police and fire union leadership and the membership.

Since the firefighter unions have endorsed Kerry, I think the union leadership is being far more opportunistic than the Bush campaign.

A few years back the Police Union I was in endorsed Kathleen Brown for governor. She was not the choice of many cops, the union leadership, yes.

[quade 4]

O'Reilly is covering it now on FOXNews.

Might make for some interesting watching.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkydiverRick 0]

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Their governments should do something to stop it. Ours has.

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It's not that we don't care, it's just that they don't want our help.

That’s BS and you should know better. The US took its eyes of the ball after the initial action in Afghanistan to pursue actions in Iraq, which it claims, is part of the war on terror, but it is clearly not. It is about strategic influence and securing oil.

The invasion of Iraq has been the main trigger of major terror attacks against civilians in Turkey, Iraq and parts of Asia.
The activities related to fighting the Al Qaeda network lost priority in favour of the activities in Iraq. The action in Iraq has upset many Muslims and has not only led to more attacks, but also a strengthening of extremist organisations like JI in Indonesia (do some research and you will find articles documenting how extremist organisations in Asia and the Middle East have gained ground). I am also sure that many of the people throwing bombs in Iraq did not do that prior to the US led invasion.
The latest issue is that a fundamentalist political organisation (which has been compared to the Taleban) has grown very strong in Malaysia on the back of strong anti-=US / western sentiment. This might de-stabilise Malaysia at the next election.

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Indications? How about hard data?

Do some research and you will find enough material regarding the increase in terrorist activities and the increased popularity of extreme organisations in Muslim countries.

Sorry dude, but if terrorists attack a country, it's on them not us. If they are unhappy with the US they should attack us instead of a third party. Don't blame us for the actions of a bunch of cowards.As far as the research that you mentioned, I'm not going to waste my time doing your research. I'll say it again, there are less terrorists now than there was 4 years ago.

never pull low......unless you are

[kallend 2,150]

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I've seen some of the ads, and have heard the talking heads' opinions.

I don't see an issue with using the footage that they used in the ads. It's not as if Bush wasn't president at the time, and it's not as if it wasn't a huge turning point in this country.

I don't see it as a tactical error at all.

Ciels-
Michele

It is as expected. He would be stupid not to use the images.

Is it in bad taste? Most political ads are in bad taste, whomsoever it comes from.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,150]

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Hey Quade,

Just thought I tell you I feel safer and the economy seems better.

Your risk of death or injury from skydiving exceeds your risk of death or injury from terrorism or enemy action by 1000s of %. If you really want to be safer, quit skydiving!

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,120]

> If they are unhappy with the US they should attack us instead of a third party.

Have no fear! I'm sure they will.

>As far as the research that you mentioned, I'm not going to waste
> my time doing your research. I'll say it again, there are less
> terrorists now than there was 4 years ago.

Since you dislike research I'll do some for you. Terrorist organizations are certainly making a comeback. We started out with the right idea in Afghanistan, but have since gotten mired in Iraq and lost track of the original mission. Indeed, since our allies rather than the US has made most of the Al Qaeda arrests, our alienation of our allies is a huge problem. Why help a country that constantly disparages and attacks you? Why not turn a blind eye to Al Qaeda if they leave you alone? The US has said in no uncertain terms that they don't need help.

From FOX News:

Iraq War Boosts Militants' Recruiting

KARACHI, Pakistan — Riding a wave of anti-American sentiment, outlawed Islamic extremist organizations that were routed by the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan in 2001 are making a comeback.

Recruitment in Pakistan of potential terrorists appears to be on the rise. Militant leaders freed from house arrest have returned to the mosques to rally the faithful against the United States.

Muslim radicals are feeding on anger over the war in Iraq to regroup and revitalize, raising the threat of more anti-U.S. terrorism around the world.
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From National Geographic:

In "Al Qaeda: The Network," National Geographic EXPLORER looks at evidence that al Qaeda is actively rebuilding its terrorist network, recruiting, training, and preparing for more attacks around the world. Experts say that since al Qaeda's Afghan base was destroyed nearly a year and a half ago, a new threat has emerged: regional terrorist groups allied with al Qaeda and imbued with its ideology. These groups don’t wait for specific orders to carry out deadly acts against Western targets, they warn.

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Violence threatens Afghanistan's first vote

BY JONATHAN S. LANDAY, Miami Herald

WASHINGTON - While attention is focused on Iraq, the United States and its international partners are struggling to overcome worsening violence, voter registration problems and other difficulties that threaten to delay Afghanistan's first elections since the U.S.-backed overthrow of the Taliban.

. . .

Poor security is the greatest obstacle to the elections, U.S. and U.N. officials said.

The problem is especially serious in southern and eastern regions bordering Pakistan, where the Taliban, a radical Islamic militia that overran the country in 1996, and their al Qaeda allies are staging a comeback.

The extremists, operating out of sanctuaries in Pakistan's lawless tribal areas, are regularly attacking U.S. and international troops, foreign aid workers, Afghan officials and security forces, with more than 60 people killed this month.

[billvon 3,120]

>If you really want to be safer, quit skydiving!

The issue is not about being safer, the issue is about feeling safer.

[mikkey 0]

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Sorry dude, but if terrorists attack a country, it's on them not us. If they are unhappy with the US they should attack us instead of a third party. Don't blame us for the actions of a bunch of cowards.As far as the research that you mentioned, I'm not going to waste my time doing your research. I'll say it again, there are less terrorists now than there was 4 years ago.

You make some very bold statements for somebody who does not want to do any research and find out the facts. But then again... am I surprised.?

I refer to the material Billvon provided in his above post and can add a couple from a quick search on the BBC web site:

1) From an analysis on the War on Terror a few months ago by :

More attacks
The attacks have not stopped. In October 2002 the Bali bomb killed 202 people. Then came the attack on the hotel near Mombasa in November 2002. Then a lull, then the triple bombings in Riyadh in May 2003, killing more than 30 people.
Then there was Casablanca, Jakarta and a whole string of major bombings in Iraq that may or may not be connected to Islamist suicide bombers sympathetic to al-Qaeda.
US intelligence analysts are convinced that the US remains the prime target and that Bin Laden's supporters have not given up their quest to carry out a truly devastating and humiliating attack on either the US or Britain.

Diversification
Before the Afghan campaign of 2001, al-Qaeda was relatively easy to find. It had a logistical and command headquarters in Afghanistan.
Now that it has been scattered across the world it has been likened to a hornet's nest hit with a stick. The hornets are everywhere and harder to catch.
In order to survive, al-Qaeda has successfully mutated. It is no longer a structured organisation with different divisions for financing, recruitment and operations.
Instead it has transferred its ideology and some of its expertise and finance to splinter groups such as Jemaah Islamiah in Asia, Jihadi militants in East Africa and certain North African cells in Europe.

Hearts and minds
The importance of this clichéd expression cannot be underestimated. Victories on the battlefield or in the interrogation rooms are meaningless if terror networks can continue to recruit from a large wellspring of discontented youth.
And that is exactly what is happening. The wave of horror and sympathy for the victims that spread across much of the Arab and Muslim world after 11 September has long ago changed to something else.

America is seen as having capitalised on those attacks by trying to "conquer" Muslim countries - Afghanistan and Iraq. The war on Saddam was seen by many as an unwarranted attack on a largely defenceless civilian population, already emaciated by 12 years of UN sanctions.
Washington's military and diplomatic support for Israel - still the bête noire for most Arabs - is undiminished.
Unfairly, many young Arabs blame their unemployment and lack of a political voice on a "US-Zionist" conspiracy aimed at somehow suppressing Muslims.
But there is also now a growing conviction that the Bush administration has acquired a taste for regime change and will not stop at Baghdad. Threats to Syria and Iran to change their policies only confirm that view.
Against this backdrop it is hardly surprising that the US - and its close ally Britain - are losing the battle for Arab and Muslim hearts and minds.

2) From an article in Feb reproting statements by George Tenet (Head of CIA)

The head of the CIA has warned that the al-Qaeda terror network remains capable of mounting another 9/11-style attack on America. George Tenet said although the network had been seriously damaged, it continued to pose a major threat to the United States and its allies. Mr Tenet said there was evidence al-Qaeda was planning to recruit airline pilots to carry out attacks. "Terrorists" were still trying to obtain "catastrophic weapons," he said.

.....
"The steady growth of [al-Qaeda leader] Osama Bin Laden's anti-US sentiment through the wider Sunni [Islamic] extremist movement, and the broad dissemination of al-Qaeda's destructive expertise, ensure that a serious threat will remain for the foreseeable future - with or without al-Qaeda in the picture," said Mr Tenet.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[kallend 2,150]

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>If you really want to be safer, quit skydiving!

The issue is not about being safer, the issue is about feeling safer.

Are you suggesting that perception is reality?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkydiverRick 0]

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Sorry dude, but if terrorists attack a country, it's on them not us. If they are unhappy with the US they should attack us instead of a third party. Don't blame us for the actions of a bunch of cowards.As far as the research that you mentioned, I'm not going to waste my time doing your research. I'll say it again, there are less terrorists now than there was 4 years ago.

You make some very bold statements for somebody who does not want to do any research and find out the facts. But then again... am I surprised.?

I refer to the material Billvon provided in his above post and can add a couple from a quick search on the BBC web site:

1) From an analysis on the War on Terror a few months ago by :

More attacks
The attacks have not stopped. In October 2002 the Bali bomb killed 202 people. Then came the attack on the hotel near Mombasa in November 2002. Then a lull, then the triple bombings in Riyadh in May 2003, killing more than 30 people.
Then there was Casablanca, Jakarta and a whole string of major bombings in Iraq that may or may not be connected to Islamist suicide bombers sympathetic to al-Qaeda.
US intelligence analysts are convinced that the US remains the prime target and that Bin Laden's supporters have not given up their quest to carry out a truly devastating and humiliating attack on either the US or Britain.

Diversification
Before the Afghan campaign of 2001, al-Qaeda was relatively easy to find. It had a logistical and command headquarters in Afghanistan.
Now that it has been scattered across the world it has been likened to a hornet's nest hit with a stick. The hornets are everywhere and harder to catch.
In order to survive, al-Qaeda has successfully mutated. It is no longer a structured organisation with different divisions for financing, recruitment and operations.
Instead it has transferred its ideology and some of its expertise and finance to splinter groups such as Jemaah Islamiah in Asia, Jihadi militants in East Africa and certain North African cells in Europe.

Hearts and minds
The importance of this clichéd expression cannot be underestimated. Victories on the battlefield or in the interrogation rooms are meaningless if terror networks can continue to recruit from a large wellspring of discontented youth.
And that is exactly what is happening. The wave of horror and sympathy for the victims that spread across much of the Arab and Muslim world after 11 September has long ago changed to something else.

America is seen as having capitalised on those attacks by trying to "conquer" Muslim countries - Afghanistan and Iraq. The war on Saddam was seen by many as an unwarranted attack on a largely defenceless civilian population, already emaciated by 12 years of UN sanctions.
Washington's military and diplomatic support for Israel - still the bête noire for most Arabs - is undiminished.
Unfairly, many young Arabs blame their unemployment and lack of a political voice on a "US-Zionist" conspiracy aimed at somehow suppressing Muslims.
But there is also now a growing conviction that the Bush administration has acquired a taste for regime change and will not stop at Baghdad. Threats to Syria and Iran to change their policies only confirm that view.
Against this backdrop it is hardly surprising that the US - and its close ally Britain - are losing the battle for Arab and Muslim hearts and minds.

2) From an article in Feb reproting statements by George Tenet (Head of CIA)

The head of the CIA has warned that the al-Qaeda terror network remains capable of mounting another 9/11-style attack on America. George Tenet said although the network had been seriously damaged, it continued to pose a major threat to the United States and its allies. Mr Tenet said there was evidence al-Qaeda was planning to recruit airline pilots to carry out attacks. "Terrorists" were still trying to obtain "catastrophic weapons," he said.

.....
"The steady growth of [al-Qaeda leader] Osama Bin Laden's anti-US sentiment through the wider Sunni [Islamic] extremist movement, and the broad dissemination of al-Qaeda's destructive expertise, ensure that a serious threat will remain for the foreseeable future - with or without al-Qaeda in the picture," said Mr Tenet.

....................................................

I didn't see any numbers in your well researched post. There's a lot of talk about recruitment being up, but it doesn't say anything about there being more terrorists now than before. They are changing tactics and forming new alliances, but I don't see how this changes my assertion that there are fewer terrorists now.

never pull low......unless you are

[mikkey 0]

If the documentation in Bill's and my post is not clear enough for you then you are beyond reasonable discussion.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Beerlight 0]

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I know you guys don't give a f*** about what happens outside the US.

Careful, don't lump everyone into one basket....

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Most of the attacks have direct correlation to actions of the US but who cares, its mostly "foreigners" being killed. There are indication that the invasion of Iraq has increased the recruiting of islamic terror organisations dramatically. Thank you Mr. Bush.

I agree that there must be a rather large recruiting effort going on. Gotta fill all those empty slots in their ranks........

Terrorism is not gonna stop. Nor is it GWB's fault either..... It's not one persons fault that the world has gone to fuck. But, I can tell you this much. The US can always be counted on during a time of crisis. And you can go do your "research" on that one.

Anytime theres a natural disaster, the US lends a hand, or when some third world bully country tries to take over another, guess what....we're there.

Hell, I know everyone wants to blame someone on the worlds woes, thats a natural human reaction.

Anyway, next time your country or some other country is in trouble, who they gonna call?

[billvon 3,120]

>Are you suggesting that perception is reality?

Reality causes things to happen to people; perceptions cause them to vote (or act) how they do. Happens in skydiving too. How many skydivers jump a tiny canopy at 200 jumps but use a cypres because they consider themselves safe skydivers? Not reality, but a common belief.

[quade 4]

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Are you suggesting that perception is reality?

Reality is reality.

Our vague notions of what reality is can only be based upon our perception.

Of course, -you- already knew that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[slug 1]

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I haven't seen the ads yet, so don't have my own opinion. But people closer to the issue than I aren't happy about them.

9/11 Victims' Kin Angered by Bush Ads

Dirty Politic's goes on all the time IMO a new low water mark. Right, left, Democrat, Republican still don't make it right.

What were they thinking!! Dumb way to start a reelection campaign.

R.I.P.

[jb092 0]

Well he was in office when it happened. It also was the one of the biggest things to happen in his term so why not use it?

What could possibly go wrong?

[slug 1]

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Well he was in office when it happened. It also was the one of the biggest things to happen in his term so why not use it?

GW was in the wrong place at the wrong time.He inherited the peroblem. Don't really understand why he needs it. GW: "it's the economy stupid",( not you jb) loss of jobs, national debt, lack of accountabilty, Fubar in Iraq, and the growth of big brother.

GW's staff has $100million to run his reelection campaign another bad move.

We will never forget 9/11 we don't need $$$$ to remind us.

R.I.P.

[ltdiver 3]

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Are you suggesting that perception is reality?

Depends on what color glasses are worn.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

From what I heard on NPR today, the ad simply uses a ONE-SECOND shot of the flag over the debris of the World Trade Center. Hardly what I would consider a real milking of the subject.

Besides, HE [I]WAS PRESIDENT during the attacks, and he WAS expected to (and did) LEAD after what happened. I think it's perfectly valid to depict something about the attacks. Hey, he didn't use a picture of the WTC with smoking holes in the buildings... That would be different.

But christ, at the end of the year just about every newspaper, news show, news magazine, etc. had photo montages of "what happened." This ad is like that: it's a "what happened" during the president's term. I think it's fair to use an image of the WTC, and I think that attacks on Bush about this are idiotic. Don't tell me that if Gore had been president and were now seeking reelection after leading us through this "war on terror," that HE wouldn't be using the same friggin' imagery.

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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WASHINGTON, March 3 /U.S. Newswire/ --

"Bush is calling on the biggest disaster in our country's history, and indeed in the history of the fire service, to win sympathy for his campaign. Since the attacks, Bush has been using images of himself putting his arm around a retired FDNY fire fighter on the pile of rubble at ground zero. But for two and a half years he has basically shortchanged fire fighters and the safety of our homeland by not providing fire fighters the resources needed to do the job that America deserves."

WTF does that mean?? "Not providing firefighters the resources needed to do the job that America deserves"??

Since when does it befall the PRESIDENT to provide for local firefighters? Do we have a Federal Firefighter Force or something that I'm not aware of? Sheez, here I thought it was up to the state and local governments to provide for their firefighters...

Yet another meaningless attack on Bush -- has no correlation with reality. Blaming him for not doing something he's not even expected or required to do... Yay democrats.

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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There's a lot less of them.

Really? Seems to me there's been some heavy recruiting going on since we started pissing off more people. Do you have the latest census figures for terrorists?

Really?? Did YOU get that direct-mail "Join AL QUAIDA now!" flier too?!

What the hell are you talking about, "there's been some heavy recruiting going on"?? How would you know whether there's been heavy recruiting going on? Are you over in the mideast? Or are you alleging it's happening in American neighborhoods?

By the way, AMERICANS PISS OFF FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS SIMPLY FOR LIVING, BREATHING, AND SUCCEEDING.

How would you suggest we stop pissing jealous or intolerant people off around the world? One stipulation: you can't say "stop existing." That one doesn't count.

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[kallend 2,150]

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By the way, AMERICANS PISS OFF FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS SIMPLY FOR LIVING, BREATHING, AND SUCCEEDING.

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No - it's for interfering in their part of the world. If the US didn't send $Billions each year to Israel, and have troops in Saudi etc., and hadn't toppled a legitimate government to put the Shah in place in Iran in 1953 and supported him for 25 years, I doubt Muslims would have much of an issue with Americans.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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