Is getting free Copyrighted material theft?

[nathaniel 0]

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Don't get me wrong. I'm not shedding any tears over Metallica missing out on a couple of bucks, but where does it end?

I think in some markets, like software, science-y type stuff like textbooks and journals, and the music biz, the end is already here--when authors grant permission willingly. This is not to say that you won't be able to exchange dollars for copyrighted content--if you somehow desire to pay for what you could substitute with free goods. I don't think this needs to be forced--imo we already have it.

I think the trick is broadening one's horizons. If you absolutely must have the Beatles' every album then you're going to have a hard time finding substitutes...but if you're just looking for something to listen to you'll find more than you might have expected.

The New York Times has been free on the web since the 90's, and dozens of magazines and newspapers likewise. Even the Wall Street Journal, which is famously proud of their pay-for-content model, frequently feels the need to release individual articles free to the world so they can be indexed by services like Google News. They're feeling competitive pressure from readily available free substitutes--no matter how their spin department characterizes it.

MIT Open Courseware
Motion Mountain Physics textbook
PubMed Central <- NIH online dump of selected medical journals
Gutenberg E-Text Project <- not quite on topic, since it provides copyright-expired stuff
Software in the Public Interest <- there's dozens of organizations like this one


nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[Thanatos340 1]

You do not "OWN" that music. Roger Waters (or whoever) does. You own a disc or Cassette that contains a recording of that music that was legally acquired. Now if you would like to transfer that recording to another format, it is up to the Owner of that Music if they will allow this.
What is great about a capitalist society is that if they do not allow you to this, then you should definitely make sure that they do not get anymore of your business.
If this truly upset you then don’t buy any more music in any format. If enough people do this, then the Owners will reconsider. It is all about supply and demand.

[Guest]

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they did NOT buy the software; they just paid a fee for the right to use it.

THAT is what I have a serious problem with, which is why I'm an Open Source advocate.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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You do not "OWN" that music. Roger Waters (or whoever) does. You own a disc or Cassette that contains a recording of that music that was legally acquired. Now if you would like to transfer that recording to another format, it is up to the Owner of that Music if they will allow this.
What is great about a capitalist society is that if they do not allow you to this, then you should definitely make sure that they do not get anymore of your business.
If this truly upset you then don’t buy any more music in any format. If enough people do this, then the Owners will reconsider. It is all about supply and demand.

BULLSHIT. WHAT ABOUT THE "FAIR USE" DOCTRINE? Don't I have a right to make a copy of a work (read - COPYRIGHT) for my personal use? Copyright law (FAIR USE) says I do.


Edit to add - it is still a violation of the copyright holder's rights to DISTRIBUTE a copy of a copyrighted work that one DOES NOT OWN, but Lisa's remark about "How many times should I be forced to pay for the same material?" is dead-on.

I've got LOADS of MP3s, but they are copies of materials I already own in CD format, and I have no intention of sharing them - they don't belong to me (I made copies for myself in accordance with FAIR USE). You want some - go buy them from the artist - you won't get them for free from me.

BTW - don't take my word for any of this, read what musician Janis Ian has to say about this--

"When I research an article, I normally send 30 or so emails to friends and acquaintances asking for opinions and anecdotes. I usually receive 10-20 in reply. But not so on this subject!

I sent 36 emails requesting opinions and facts on free music downloading from the Net. I stated that I planned to adopt the viewpoint of devil's advocate: free Internet downloads are good for the music industry and its artists.

I've received, to date, over 300 replies, every single one from someone legitimately "in the music business."

What's more interesting than the emails are the phone calls. I don't know anyone at NARAS (home of the Grammy Awards), and I know Hilary Rosen (head of rhe Recording Industry Association of America, or RIAA) only vaguely. Yet within 24 hours of sending my original email, I'd received two messages from Rosen and four from NARAS requesting that I call to "discuss the article."

Huh. Didn't know I was that widely read.

Ms. Rosen, to be fair, stressed that she was only interested in presenting RIAA's side of the issue, and was kind enough to send me a fair amount of statistics and documentation, including a number of focus group studies RIAA had run on the matter.

However, the problem with focus groups is the same problem anthropologists have when studying peoples in the field - the moment the anthropologist's presence is known, everything changes. Hundreds of scientific studies have shown that any experimental group wants to please the examiner. For focus groups, this is particularly true. Coffee and donuts are the least of the pay-offs.

The NARAS people were a bit more pushy. They told me downloads were "destroying sales", "ruining the music industry", and "costing you money".

Costing me money? I don't pretend to be an expert on intellectual property law, but I do know one thing. If a music industry executive claims I should agree with their agenda because it will make me more money, I put my hand on my wallet…and check it after they leave, just to make sure nothing's missing.

Am I suspicious of all this hysteria? You bet. Do I think the issue has been badly handled? Absolutely. Am I concerned about losing friends, opportunities, my 10th Grammy nomination by publishing this article? Yeah. I am. But sometimes things are just wrong, and when they're that wrong, they have to be addressed.

The premise of all this ballyhoo is that the industry (and its artists) are being harmed by free downloading.

Nonsense. Let's take it from my personal experience. My site (www.janisian.com ) gets an average of 75,000 hits a year. Not bad for someone whose last hit record was in 1975. When Napster was running full-tilt, we received about 100 hits a month from people who'd downloaded Society's Child or At Seventeen for free, then decided they wanted more information. Of those 100 people (and these are only the ones who let us know how they'd found the site), 15 bought CDs. Not huge sales, right? No record company is interested in 180 extra sales a year. But… that translates into $2700, which is a lot of money in my book. And that doesn't include the ones who bought the CDs in stores, or who came to my shows."


mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[CrazyIvan 0]

The RIAA makes a big deal about being 'ripped-off' but, I think that's not entirely true, I mean, XYZ band releases a 'single' and its being played on radio stations AT NAUSEUM, so, you purchase the CD and guess what, that's the ONLY good song in it, and you paid $17 or more for it, who's getting ripped off?, of course, now you can buy a single track for 99 cents, but, why?, I rather download it from somewhere or 'rip it off a CD'...it's human nature.

And moreover, you could download 'illegaly' but if the band or group or whatever IS GOOD, you'll go to their concerts, and eventually BUY the CD.

Just my 2 cents.

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[bvsdjumper 0]

Since I'm the guy that mentioned the word millionaire in this thread, I'll admit that I didn't think of music store owners, employees, truck drivers, etc. I believe bringing those folks up more often should be done. They're probably affected the most. I certainly don't want to see a local record store (or anyone for that matter) go out of business because of too much piracy.

With that said, I can still see how it's easy for someone to type in the name of song by a big name artist for big name record label and download it without feeling too guilty.

BTW, I'm not a big mp3 downloader. I don't have a portable player and I simply don't listen to music on my computer. And, maybe I need better speakers or whatever, but the mp3s that I've heard don't sound quite as good as original CDs.

--Art

Sky-div'ing (ski'div'ing) n. A modern sport that involves parties, bragging, sexual excesses, the imbibing of large quantities of beer, and, on rare occasions, parachuting from aircraft.

[kallend 2,146]

I have created copyrighted computer software that I give away free. The documentation even encourages free distribution provided the software and the notice itself are not modified. IMO, someone that receives it is not stealing it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Guest]

More from Janis Ian:

"There are, as I see it, three operative issues that explain the entertainment industry's heavy-handed response to the concept of downloading music from the Internet:

1. Control. The music industry is no different from any other huge corporation, be it Mobil Oil or the Catholic church. When faced with a new technology or a new product that will revolutionize their business, their response is predictable:

a. Destroy it. And if they cannot,
b. Control it. And if they cannot,
c. Control the consumer who wishes to use it, and the legislators and laws that are supposed to protect that consumer.

This is not unique to the entertainment industry. This mind-set is part of the fabric of our daily lives. Movie companies sued over VCR manufacturing and blank video sales, with Jack Valenti (Motion Picture Association of America chairman) testifying to Congress that the VCR is to the movie industry what the Boston Strangler is to a woman alone at night - and yet, video sales now account for more industry profit than movies themselves....No entrenched model has ever embraced a new technology (or idea) without suffering the attendant death throes."

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Thanatos340 1]

The Radio stations Pay allot for the right to play those songs. So do Bars and Night Clubs.
I worked my way through College DJ`ing various Strip Clubs around Atlanta . ASCAP and BMI and a few others sued several Clubs I worked at in the 80`s because they had not paid the fees for playing the music in their clubs. They all lost even though they had bought the CD`s they were playing. Every few months we would have to fill out a Form listing every song we played and submit it to the Agencies so they could distribute that payments to the Artists. Real Pain in the Ass for the DJ`s but no way around it.

As for $17 for a CD with one good song.. Don’t buy that CD. It is up to you.

[Guest]

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I have created copyrighted computer software that I give away free. The documentation even encourages free distribution provided the software and the notice itself are not modified. IMO, someone that receives it is not stealing it.

Not if Daryl McBride has his way!

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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The Radio stations Pay allot for the right to play those songs. So do Bars and Night Clubs.
I worked my way through College DJ`ing various Strip Clubs around Atlanta . ASCAP and BMI and a few others sued several Clubs I worked at in the 80`s because they had not paid the fees for playing the music in their clubs. They all lost even though they had bought the CD`s they were playing. Every few months we would have to fill out a Form listing every song we played and submit it to the Agencies so they could distribute that payments to the Artists. Real Pain in the Ass for the DJ`s but no way around it.

As for $17 for a CD with one good song.. Don’t buy that CD. It is up to you.

Your anectdote concerns the for-profit presentation of a copyrighted work, NOT FAIR USE by a private citizen for personal reasons. There's a very, very big difference.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[bvsdjumper 0]

Hmmm, interesting.

So will the record stores be replaced by computer stores/mp3 player stores and the truck driver now be hauling all this equipment instead of CDs?

--Art

Sky-div'ing (ski'div'ing) n. A modern sport that involves parties, bragging, sexual excesses, the imbibing of large quantities of beer, and, on rare occasions, parachuting from aircraft.

[kallend 2,146]

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BULLSHIT. WHAT ABOUT THE "FAIR USE" DOCTRINE? Don't I have a right to make a copy of a work (read - COPYRIGHT) for my personal use? Copyright law (FAIR USE) says I do.

It used to be that FAIR USE extended to use for educational purposes (public interest being the original rationale for IP laws). With certain restrictions, I can copy pages of books for my class, etc. quite legally.

What irritates me intensely is that I can no longer do this with bits of movies because of copy protection. One of the best learning tools for my freshman physics class is to go over the physics errors in movies like Armageddon (there are plenty), but I cannot (easily) copy the relevant scenes for them.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Guest]

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Hmmm, interesting.

So will the record stores be replaced by computer stores/mp3 player stores and the truck driver now be hauling all this equipment instead of CDs?

--Art

Only if RIAA has full control over every aspect of that business model, in the same way they had control over the (now obsolete) paradigm of distribution.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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What irritates me intensely is that I can no longer do this with bits of movies because of copy protection. One of the best learning tools for my freshman physics class is to go over the physics errors in movies like Armageddon (there are plenty), but I cannot (easily) copy the relevant scenes for them.

It sounds as though you could, but can't or won't for fear of legal retaliation by the copyright owners. That's a muzzling of academic expression, and it really pisses me off.

SDMI threatened to charge a Princeton professor Edward Felten’s team of researchers with a violation of the DMCA if they published a paper about it - Felten turned around and sued THEM for violating his rights under copyright law.



mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[kallend 2,146]

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What irritates me intensely is that I can no longer do this with bits of movies because of copy protection. One of the best learning tools for my freshman physics class is to go over the physics errors in movies like Armageddon (there are plenty), but I cannot (easily) copy the relevant scenes for them.

It sounds as though you could, but can't or won't for fear of legal retaliation by the copyright owners. That's a muzzling of academic expression, and it really pisses me off.


.

Well, I suppose I could get some "ripping" software, but the protection on most recent tapes and all DVDs prevents easily making a copy of a scene. I can do it via my DV camcorder and PC, but it is so much effort it's not really worth it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[bodypilot90 0]

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And how about if I already "own" the music in a format other than CD? As an example I've owned Pink Floyd "The Wall" in four different formats - album, 8 track, cassette and CD - over the years. If I hadn't bought the CD version pre-Napster I'd have had no problem downloading the tracks - I don't think that should be illegal. How many times should I have to pay for the same songs?

or how about albums, cassettes that no longer work. I lost 25 years worth of music in a house fire. thanks to mp3's i have all my old music back.

[Guest]

Boo-loney. PM me for info on DVD ripping to VCD/avi/MPEG.

I've converted DVDs to all those formats (though I like mpeg the best).

Edit to add - making an excerpt for education purposes is protected by Fair Use. Making a complete copy for commercial profit-making exhibition purposes (e.g., charging admission to watch the movie or selling an unlicensed copy on eBay) is prohibited.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[WeakMindedFool 0]

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Well, I suppose I could get some "ripping" software, but the protection on most recent tapes and all DVDs prevents easily making a copy of a scene. I can do it via my DV camcorder and PC, but it is so much effort it's not really worth it.

PM me and I'll explain how to do it...it's easy. I can even email the macrovision crack to ya...


Edited to add: Damn...Gordon Freeman beat me to it!

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[Rainbo 0]

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Boo-loney. PM me for info on DVD ripping to VCD/avi/MPEG.

[Rainbo looks over shoulder...thinks he hears big brother walking down the hallway]

Rainbo
TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything
"Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting."

[smiles 0]

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How many times should I have to pay for the same songs?

The money I've just spent on surround sound stereo system (speakers alone).....I have to go out now and purchase Pink Floyd in surround sound 6.1 to appreciate the clarity of it all....am I impressed???
You betcha-

SMiles

[Kennedy 0]

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Is getting free Copyrighted material theft?

Duh.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[smiles 0]

I say yes- it is theft.

As far back as I can remember- I personally like to arrange my choice of listening music (seldom listen to 2 tracks of a particular band one after another)............I prefer to purchase tracks of my choice and mixing how I choose.

the Pepsi/iTunes giveaway? Pepsi giving away 100 million songs. I kept thinking that this was the exact thing that the industry needed to get people interested in paid online music services. Think about it: they're bringing free legal music downloads to the masses. I still think that this is a brilliant idea, and there's no doubt that more people are probably downloading iTunes just to redeem their free song.

Well, the Super Bowl came and went faster than Janet's wardrobe malfunction, and it's time to analyze my personal results. Have I even touched a Pepsi product to try to potentially win since then? Nah.

I'm not going to spend a dollar on a drink that I don't want just to have the possibility of getting a free song download that is worth the price of the drink I bought in the first place.

The funny thing is that the target age group that the RIAA is afraid of. (teenager who obsesses over music and still lives at home)

Has this whole free and legal music giveaway converted the music pirates to change their actions? I highly doubt it. They're probably just thinking, "Why would I care about these free downloads when I'm already downloading my music for free?" The number of music swappers dipped a little when the subpoenas started being dispersed, but now people are calloused to it again.

Pepsi and Apple are making commendable efforts in their fight for legal music downloads, but it's going to take something even more drastic for these rebels of the digital age to stray from their P2P addiction.

SMiles

[bch7773 0]

is it theft? probably. Am I going to stop doing it anytime soon? probably not.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Zenister 0]

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Since I'm the guy that mentioned the word millionaire in this thread, I'll admit that I didn't think of music store owners, employees, truck drivers, etc. I believe bringing those folks up more often should be done. They're probably affected the most. I certainly don't want to see a local record store (or anyone for that matter) go out of business because of too much piracy.

they are dying because no one wants to pay the extra $6-10 per disk for the window dressing of the store..It makes no sense that you can order a disk delivered direct to your door for 10.99 but must pay 18.99 for the same disk at Sam Goody..

internet 'piracy' has little to do with why music stores are dying, its the artificially inflated prices the recording industry pushes...and the fact that most of modern 'manufactured' mass produced bands really suck.

yes. It is stealing, however its also civil disobedience as a direct result of the gross inflation in music industry while actual production (both the physical reproduction and the original recording and creation) costs continue to go down!!

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.