Hockey Fights

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

they dont know anything about hockey, how can they be in a position to judge him

Because losers who hit people in the back are easy to judge.

Fighters are one thing, people who jump you from the back are another.

I've stood in the ring with a lot of people. I understand a good fight. I won and lost a few. People who hit me after the whistle or low-kicked me, got taken out.

[Billy 0]

Was there any history to this, these two players have some other shit goin on?? Not that it justifies the hit, but what lead up to it that isn't in the media?

Natural Born FlyerZ.com

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Hockey fights can be enjoyable; however, that was a cowardly act - period.

A lot of statements that a hockey conflict (fights, checking, etc.) are part of the game. You bet it is and it makes the sport very fun to watch and play.

With that, the assaults we see in some games (with this exampler being in front of us) are criminal assault and shouldn't be associated with the game itself. That's where (for example) the right of the NHL to police itself is not the right thing to do or; They can police themselves by saying, "This crossed the line and isn't in the interest or spirit of the sport, you are on your own and the police are waiting for you as soon as you leave the locker room".

That's my point. Thanks

As an aside - doesn't Sunnydee keep getting cooler everytime she posts something?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[theskydiveguy 0]

They had an interview with him last night on the news from a few years back of him saying how upset he was about another players attack!!!!

I guess what comes around goes around. They also mentioned the Vancouver police investigation may take between 3 and 4 weeks.

~Jeff

[Luv2Fall 0]

Agreed.

[goose491 0]

Quote

Was there any history to this, these two players have some other shit goin on?? Not that it justifies the hit, but what lead up to it that isn't in the media?

Yeah, the guy he laid out had delivered a nasty hit to a Vancouver player and didn't get a penalty for it... IMO, 'twas a clean hit... but it don't matter.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Quote

Was there any history to this, these two players have some other shit goin on?? Not that it justifies the hit, but what lead up to it that isn't in the media?

Yeah, the guy he laid out had delivered a nasty hit to a Vancouver player and didn't get a penalty for it... IMO, 'twas a clean hit... but it don't matter.

Plus the Vancouver players had publicly put a bounty on Steve Moore's head prior to the game. It would have been fine if one of the Canuckleheads was to confront Moore with a one on one, face to face fight and pummel him (in fact this indeed happened earlier in the game, the fight not the pummeling part). But this wasn't the case. Bertuzzi clearly lost it and now he must pay the price. In fact I'd be willing to bet that Bertuzzi did what he did because Moore held his own in that fight and felt that he still had a score to settle. In other words, Bertuzzi felt that Moore hadn't been hurt yet and need to be hurt because of the clean, yet tough hit Moore put on Nasland three weeks prior which resulted in Nasland missing three games.

This isn't likely to happen (because Bertuzzi is a talented power forward). But it would be cool to see all of the NHL teams (including Vancouver) black list him. It would send a message to the rest of the players that sucker punching someone will cost you your career. But unfortunately the world of professional sports doesn't work this way.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AndyMan 7]

I'm a bit perplexed about all the discussions around laws being broken.

Are laws broken during a boxing match?

Fighting is, always has, and always will be a major part of hockey. This isn't a bad thing, it isn't a good thing - it's just the way it is. The NHL in a lot of ways encourages fights, and fans react by tuning in and idolizing the "goons". The biggest broadcaster of Hockey, the CBC, employs perhaps the biggest "Goon" of all, Don Cherry as their leading comentator.

Fighting is part of hockey.

Fans don't want fighting to go away.

Players don't want fighting to go away.

Owners don't want fighting to go away.

Broadcasters don't want fighting to go away.

Allow me to make a prediction: Fighting in hockey will not go away.

Criminal charges against a hockey player for what goes on inside the rink, makes no more sense then charging a boxer for what goes on inside the ring.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[rehmwa 2]

AM - criminal assault doesn't equal acceptable sports fighting - this wasn't a a couple goons roughing each other up, it wasn't a legal check, it wasn't some hotheaded scuffle, it was a blind sided hit to the back of the head - nothing to do with hockey, everything to do with criminal behavior

he crossed the line and this attack wasn't part of hockey

If you were playing baseball, and someone walked up behind you and hit you in the head with a baseball bat - that's the comparison

If he waited outside the rink after the game and hit him in the back of the head with his fist - that's the comparison

If you're playing checkers with a stranger and he sticks a knife in your eye - that's the comparison

this has nothing to do with hockey other than this criminal assault happened to occur while a hockey game was around it

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

criminal assault doesn't equal acceptable sports fighting - this wasn't a a couple goons roughing each other up, it wasn't a legal check, it wasn't some hotheaded scuffle, it was a blind sided hit to the back of the head - nothing to do with hockey, everything to do with criminal behavior

"Check", or "Scuffle", or "blindsided hit" are not legal terms. They're terms which define and characterise different types of fighting in hockey, which have differing levels of acceptance. These words show up in the rules of hockey, rules which spell out penalties for different acts. They do not show up in any legal texts, as far as I know.

Unless the league puts into their rulebook that certain attacks will result in criminal charges, then anything on the ice between players should stay within the league.

Quote

he crossed the line and this attack wasn't part of hockey

Fighting is, has, and will always be a part of hockey. Checking from behind has a long proud history, too. What line did he cross, and in what rulebook is that line spelled out?

Quote

If you were playing baseball, and someone walked up behind you and hit you in the head with a baseball bat - that's the comparison

Fighting exists in baseball, too. Pitchers often intentionally hit batters with 80 MPH fastballs, and batters often storm the mound causing a bench clearing brawl. To my knowledge, neither batter nor pitcher have ever been charged. Additionally, in hockey there's a long tradition of using sticks as weapons. There is no such tradition in baseball.

Quote

If he waited outside the rink after the game and hit him in the back of the head with his fist - that's the comparison

What goes on outside the rink is not apart of the game, nor is it governed by league rules. Fighting outside the rink is not condoned by owners, players, broadcaster, or fans. Just like in boxing, fighting outside the rink is clearly outside the scope of the sport.

Quote

this has nothing to do with hockey other than this criminal assault happened to occur while a hockey game was around it

Fighting is, always has, and will always be a part of hockey. To arbitrarily argue any one specific incident is "not a part of hockey" is contrived, and ignors a great deal of history. If you want to isolate certain types of fighting as unnaceptable, fine. Put it in the rulebook. Until then, its simply an extreme example of what pretty much everyone involved usually encourages. Certainly worth a long suspension at least, but definately not outside the scope of what has always gone on.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[TheBachelor 5]

The guy that delivered the hit(s) should be treated like a criminal. He said he didn't mean to hurt the guy. What the h*ll did he think was going to happen when he sucker-punched someone and then used his weight to drive the guys face into the ice. He should be suspended from the league at least as long as his "victim" is out.

Fighting goes on in American hockey because that's what the fans like. European and international hockey is on bigger ice, with more skating and less hitting. The NHL is looking at bankruptcy in a couple of years, so this may all be a moot point.

There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

If you want to isolate certain types of fighting as unnaceptable, fine. Put it in the rulebook.

They did. Rule 52 - Deliberate Injury of Opponent.

Rule 52

Quote

Bertuzzi was assessed a match penalty under Rule 52, Deliberate Injury of Opponent, at 8:41 of the third period. Under the Collective Bargaining Agreement, based on his average annual salary, Bertuzzi will forfeit at least $501,926.39. This amount will be paid by the Club into the Players' Emergency Assistance Fund.

All the hockey officials seem to think that this was not "part of the game". Personally, when I got out of the hospital, I would be looking for some payback from a guy who nearly killed me. I wouldn't be that kind or worried about the rules. Payback is a mf.

[pajarito 0]

In reply to: "Are laws broken during a boxing match?"

Boxing is a more or less controlled enviroment. That's what they're there to do. That's what they're prepared to do. Fight. They have gloves. There's a referee. They "face" each other. I also agree, however, with Mike Tyson being charged for biting Holyfield's ear. There's a point where it ceases to be a sport/game and crosses the line.

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Are laws broken during a boxing match?

Fighting is, always has, and always will be a major part of hockey.

Laws can be broken during a boxing match if the extent of the touching goes beyond the consent. Let's look at a surgery. You consent to an appendectomy. While you are out, the surgeon also decides to remove your tonsils.

The nature of the touching is the issue. While you consented to getting cut, you did not consent to the tonsils getting cut.

So, boxers hit each other. A kick to the nads would not be authorized. Nor would punches to the back of the head.

Same thing. Checkign and other contact in the sport are expected. A punch to the back of the haed, away from the action, is not. Even the Hanson brother were prosecuted in Slapshot.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[AndyMan 7]

"Consent"? Are you saying that opposing players are calling for criminal charges?

I don't hear oposing players calling for charges. The only people I hear calling for charges are pundits and parents.

If the injured player isn't calling for charges, I think we can presume he consented. I think he understands that while it was a cheap shot, it comes with the territory.


_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

They did. Rule 52 - Deliberate Injury of Opponent.

Rule 52 says absolutely nothing about aplying criminal charges for certain kinds of fighting.

I thought I was pretty clear. I'll spell it out. If you want to isolate certain types of fighting as unnaceptable, requiring criminal penalties, fine. Put it in the rulebook. If there's a "line" that when crossed results in criminal penalties, that line needs to be clearly defined. Right now there is no defined line, and as far as I can tell, there isn't anybody in profesional hockey that wants one. Therefore it doesn't exist.

The NHL, the NHLPA, the broadcasters are all perfectly clear. They don't want any criminal justice involved in on-ice issues. I happen to agree. The broadcasters agree, too and 98% of the time the fans agree.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[lawrocket 3]

Victims do not have to press charges. Otherwise there'd be no such thing as a murder conviction, would there?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[chaoskitty 0]

Nashville/St.Louis game is on in 30 min.. party at my house! Bring beer!

[chaoskitty 0]

Quote

you have $20 million dollars worth of hockey players on the ice. How much effort would it take for the NHL to simply hire some big guys to run out and break up fights? Refs won't (and shouldn't) do it, but give me $20,000 per game and I'll hire 20 bouncers to run out and stop fights. The NHL would never go for it - it's not entertainment.

Send the shovel girls out to break up the fights!
They dont get paid enough anyway :)

[hmatousek 0]

Quote

I thought I was pretty clear. I'll spell it out. If you want to isolate certain types of fighting as unnaceptable, requiring criminal penalties, fine. Put it in the rulebook.

So if there is no rule stating that I can't smack my kids then it's alright to do it?

Not all states have a corporal punishment rule. Like I said before I know whats right and the media very seldom is doing anything right for kids. I am sick of hearing excuses of why the media should get away with what it is doing. If you want people to behave a certain way then you need to model that behavior, not glamorize what we don't want our kids to do.

That just makes no sense to me reguardless of what ANY adult wants.

Heather

Life doesn't have to be perfect in order to be beautiful!

[AndyMan 7]

Heather wrote:

Quote

So if there is no rule stating that I can't smack my kids then it's alright to do it?

Fine. Lets arrest all the boxers. I think a lot of people would complain, though. If all you're trying to do is get violence out of the media, then get the NHL or the government to change the rules. Until then, it's not criminal.

lawrocket wrote:

Quote

Victims do not have to press charges.

Well, you were talking about consent. Hockey players unanimously consent to being "victims" of cheap shots. This makes them no different then boxers, who also unanimously consent to being "victims". It *IS* what they signed up for.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[murrays 0]

Quote

Quote

The hockey players on the board will agree that there is a strong "unwritten code" about hockey players policing themselves. Problems that come up on the ice are resolved on the ice. Maybe Bertuzzi needs to be suspended for life, but I would rather not see the courts involved.

Welcome to the sport I've been playing for 35 years. Based on these comments, I can only say one thing. You are a hockey player.

Amen.

The NHL has to get rid of the "Instigator Rule". All it has done is encourage more stick work and hits on star players ...with no fear of retribution it has become open season on team's skill players. A few years ago a hit on Bobby Clarke equated to a punchout from Dave "The Hammer" Schultz, a hit on Gretzky resulted in a beating from McSorley. If one of the Canucks had dropped the gloves and punched it out with Moore after the Naslund hit the situation likely wouldn't have festered and exploded in this ugly, ugly incident. The reason it didn't happen is because the Instigator gets penalized for protecting the star.

What Bertuzzi did was way over the line. A chickenshit and cowardly cheap shot that should cost him more than the rest of this season...I think it should be a year's suspension and jail time while he sits out his suspension. I'm really disgusted by what he did.


Just like a boxing match where the participants have consented to try and punch each other's lights out, the code in hockey respects rough, tough play and dirty play is countered with fists if it goes on long enough. Players accept that. When there is no fear of retribution players get slashed and hacked and crosschecked and hurt.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[rehmwa 2]

AM - You don't get what I'm talking about here. The NHL has no jurisdiction over common law. Nor should they.

So the NHL has no business deciding what constitutes a criminal attack.

Nor is a hockey rink or baseball diamond or football field or boxing ring equal a foreign land outside the jurisdiction of state and federal law - it's not an embassy. By your discussion, they could kill each other but if the NHL says that's ok and the players say that's ok, then the law should stay out of it?

that's goofy -

you don't expect to be punched in the back of the head in hockey, you don't expect to have a hockey stick swung at your head in hockey, you don't expect to be bit in the ear during boxing, you don't expect to be tackled in golf (happy gilmore anyone?), you don't expect to be mugged on the way to work. It is the same thing as being attacked in the parking lot and it's illegal and NHL has no say in that aspect of it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[tunaplanet 0]

Quote

It is the same thing as being attacked in the parking lot and it's illegal and NHL has no say in that aspect of it.

You're missing the point. The criminal aspect of what you do during a sports game is a line the courts don't want to cross.

Ask yourself this. If that player wouldn't have broken or fractured his neck, would there be talks of a criminal charge for assault? Let me answer that for you. No. Not in a million years. But when someone gets injured for an act that happens in practically every hockey game...THEN people want to jump in with their lawsuits.

So where do you want to draw the line? Should we criminally charge players for...

- Intentional facemask in football resulting in the player breaking his neck?

- Running into the catcher at home plate with full force breaking his leg?

- Late hit on a QB breaking his back?

There are hundreds more. It's wrong to come down hard on this man for doing what has been allowed for many many years. If he wouldn't have broken/fractured his neck he would have got up, both would have taken the gloves off and they would have swung on each other in a fist fight while the refs watched.

Punching players during the course of a game in hockey happens. It happens more than you think.

What you will see most likely is the NHL come down hard and possibly ban fighting. We'll see how that plays out.

Forty-two

[happythoughts 0]

After I got out of the hospital, I could see myself driving through the parking lot and bouncing him off the hood of the car. Then yelling, "Oops, late hit, sorry..." I mean, as long as it's ok with everyone.