History Buffs..

[karenmeal 0]

Hey, got my history final tommorow and am trying to figure out what to write on one of the essays on the test.. so anyone want to help me out? Please, even just a lame half ass attempt would be much appreciated!

So the question is.. Rank (and give a brief explanation for your opinion) the top five presidents since 1900. This includes Teddy Roosevelt on up to Dubbya!

Anybody? I hope there are some smart drunk people out there tonight...

[tunaplanet 0]

1. John Kennedy
2. Dwight Eisenhower
3. Harry Truman
4. Franklin Roosevelt
5. Jimmy Carter

Forty-two

[tunaplanet 0]

And just for shits and giggles...the 5 worst.....

1. Bill Clinton
2. Ronald Regan
3. Lyndon Johnson
4. Richard Nixon
5. Warren Harding

Forty-two

[karenmeal 0]

How come you place JFK at the top?

[skydyvr 0]

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5. Jimmy Carter

LOL -- thanks for the laff.

. . =(_8^(1)

[quade 4]

William McKinley - nothing too special there.

Theodore Roosevelt - Built the Panama Canal, added national forests, won the Nobel Peace Prize for mediating the Russo-Japanese War . . . up in the top five I'd say.

William Howard Taft -- nothing special

Woodrow Wilson -- War President, Federal Reserve Act, Federal Trade Commission, laws against child labor, 8-hour work day for railroad workers, League of Nations . . . depending on your modern day point of view, you could argue he was either a heroic visionary or destroyer.

Warren G. Harding -- from his bio on whitehouse.gov "By 1923 the postwar depression seemed to be giving way to a new surge of prosperity, and newspapers hailed Harding as a wise statesman carrying out his campaign promise--"Less government in business and more business in government."" Uh, again I think it depends on your modern day point of view as to whether he was a hero or jackass. I'm sort of leaning toward jackass.

Calvin Coolidge -- famous for mostly doing nothing.

Herbert Hoover -- the depression President -- a tough place to be.

Franklin D. Roosevelt -- the most electable President, serving 4 terms. Both a depression and war President. Created a LOT of interesting programs that benefit and plague us today: Social Security, heavier taxes, the WPA. Still, I think you have to put him in the top five for his work during WWII more than anything else.

Harry S. Truman -- War President, but dropped two atomic bombs . . . start of the cold war, NATO, Berlin airlift, Korea . . . odd balance of good and long term evil.

Dwight D. Eisenhower -- Cold war President, desegregation of the armed forces, "atoms of peace" program (nice name eh?)

John Kennedy -- Bay of Pigs taught him that he could only trust his military advisors so much, good deal there since it probably made him think long and hard about the Cuban Missle Crisis -- I HAVE to put him in the top 5 basically for saving the world -- at least that's my opinion.

Lyndon B. Johnson -- Civil Rights, 1964 won by the largest popular vote in history, The Great Society -- I'd say he's in the top five.

Richard M. Nixon -- left office in shame -- still, he did manage a few good things: ended the war in Viet Nam, diplomatic relations with China.

Gerald R. Ford -- "I assume the Presidency under extraordinary circumstances.... This is an hour of history that troubles our minds and hurts our hearts." And that was pretty much all he did.

Jimmy Carter -- a much better past President than President.

Ronald Reagan -- 69 days after taking office, he was shot by a guy trying to impress Jodie Foster (ok, that's a weird way of showing your love isn't it?) He was either a genius or a puppet of GE depending on who you listen to. He effectively ended the Cold War by upping the ante with his announcement of the creation of a space based defense system dubbed "Star Wars". Cut taxes, but spent like a sailor on shore leave -- mostly on defense (see references to GE).

George Bush -- believe it or not, I actually liked him. I thought he was a smart man and knew National defense from all the angles -- was previously the Director of Central Intelligence. Very poor choice in running mates however. Brought down Noriega. Came to the rescue of a small country when invaded by a much larger nutball country. Top five material.

William J. Clinton -- the lowest unemployment rate in modern times, the lowest inflation in 30 years, the highest home ownership in the country's history, dropping crime rates in many places, and reduced welfare roles. Despite his failings he was wildly popular. He successfully dispatched peace keeping forces to war-torn Bosnia and bombed Iraq when Saddam Hussein stopped United Nations inspections for evidence of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons -- his only failing there was not fully recognising the threat to come on September 11, 2001. Top 5? Eh? I think I've already used up my limit.

George W. Bush -- Uh, no. I'm almost certain that folks will be more than willing to tell you his accomplishments, but in MY opinion he has failed me, the U.S. and the world in several fundamental ways.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Gawain 0]

My opinion (and the reasons that shaped their presidencies):

(1) Ronald Wilson Reagan 1981-1989 (Cold War Ends)
(2) George Walker Bush 2001- (*2009*) (9/11, the war on terror, Afghanistan and Iraq)
(3) Franklin Delano Roosevelt 1933-1945 (WWII)
(4) Dwight David Eisenhower 1953-1961 (WWII service and Cold War Begins)
(5) Thomas Woodrow Wilson 1913-1921 (WWI)

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[AggieDave 6]

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He effectively ended the Cold War by upping the ante with his announcement of the creation of a space based defense system dubbed "Star Wars". Cut taxes, but spent like a sailor on shore leave -- mostly on defense (see references to GE).

I disagree, the cold war ended due to the economic collapse of the USSR. They were forced to match military forces with us and ended up spending over 3/4 of each Rubel on defense. We did nearly the same thing, but our economy was more solid and could weather that. Well, that's my opinion in a nutshell, I actually wrote a 20 page paper on that very topic once.

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William J. Clinton -- the lowest unemployment rate in modern times, the lowest inflation in 30 years, the highest home ownership in the country's history, dropping crime rates in many places, and reduced welfare roles

Why? That is plain and simple due to a very very strong economy. Why did that happen? It wasn't Clinton's doing, I promise you that. Basically due to Reagon's spending on defense, technology was heavily boosted, that technology boost and drive from the military industrial complex is what ran over into the private sector. That created entire new industries to be exploited by the American Capitalist system. Through that system and the initial kickstart given by the Reagon administration, the economy was able to grow. As the technology begun to mature, around 1991-1992, the extreme rise of the economy started. That gave birth to new industries, new jobs, a stronger economy, etc.

Actually I would blame him for his lack of foresite into the economy for the economic downfall after the Dot-Com collapse and others. Since his administration did not take active steps to keep the economy growing at a conservative rate, letting it grow wildly, allowing the rise of the well over inflated Dot-Com stocks, and as we all know, the Dot-Com bubble burst, sending the economy in a downward spiral that brought other industries down with it.

Honestly, I would say the same thing if Clinton was a Republican and had been of outstanding moral character, simply by reviewing the administration in terms of a historian.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Gawain 0]

Glad we don't talk politics when we see each other at the DZ...

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Harry S. Truman -- War President, but dropped two atomic bombs . . . start of the cold war, NATO, Berlin airlift, Korea . . . odd balance of good and long term evil.

...BUT dropped two atomic bombs? Dude, that was, for all its horror, a good thing. Saved millions of American and Japanese lives in the process.

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John Kennedy -- Bay of Pigs taught him that he could only trust his military advisors so much, good deal there since it probably made him think long and hard about the Cuban Missle Crisis -- I HAVE to put him in the top 5 basically for saving the world -- at least that's my opinion.

He turned his back on Bay of Pigs, which enabled the missle crisis. He brokered NATO interests to end it (Turkey).

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Lyndon B. Johnson -- Civil Rights, 1964 won by the largest popular vote in history, The Great Society -- I'd say he's in the top five.

Bwhaaahaaahaahaaa...

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Gerald R. Ford -- "I assume the Presidency under extraordinary circumstances.... This is an hour of history that troubles our minds and hurts our hearts." And that was pretty much all he did.

He was politically paralyzed. Safely squeaked by two assassination attempts.

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Jimmy Carter -- a much better past President than President.

So true.

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Ronald Reagan -- 69 days after taking office, he was shot by a guy trying to impress Jodie Foster (ok, that's a weird way of showing your love isn't it?) He was either a genius or a puppet of GE depending on who you listen to. He effectively ended the Cold War by upping the ante with his announcement of the creation of a space based defense system dubbed "Star Wars". Cut taxes, but spent like a sailor on shore leave -- mostly on defense (see references to GE).

A little simplistic, "Star Wars" didn't end the Cold War, we out-cooked their economy and forced a political, and economic collapse of what was then, one of only two superpowers in the world. Now there is one. Don't forget Grenada, Libya, and "Tear down this wall!"

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William J. Clinton -- the lowest unemployment rate in modern times, the lowest inflation in 30 years, the highest home ownership in the country's history,

Ahem, record home-ownership is now. He's slick...no doubt about it.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[quade 4]

Dave -- I don't see any conflicts on our views of the end of the cold war. I think we just worded it differently. I (and a LOT of other folks) think it was the Star Wars program that sent the whole thing over the edge.

As for the Clinton/Reagan/Bush 41 aftermath analysis, you forget to mention that Reagan ran up a deficit and that by the end of the Clinton Administration it had been -entirely- paid off. Of course, GWB has now recreated (surpassed in fact) the deficit to pass along to his successor.

Anyway, I think this thread is about who YOU think is in the top five, not argue about it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

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Ahem, record home-ownership is now. He's slick...no doubt about it.

Are you saying that the White House would lie?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Gawain 0]

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Ahem, record home-ownership is now. He's slick...no doubt about it.

Are you saying that the White House would lie?

I can't talk to that, but I can talk to the dozens of economists from CNN Lou Dobbs, et al that have cited that the recent record low interest rates have created home ownership records beyond most forecasts. Since that's happening now...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Kennedy 0]

I'll agree with you on the wastes of space and time.

TR, yeah, I can go with you on that one.

Woody Wislon - did his damnedest to ruin this country. We fought WWI because of him.
He failed at every large venture he undertook. Ranks as one of my five worst all time.

Harding - I'm leaning more towards hero than jackass, but not by much. He reminds me of Patton; he got the job done, but is it the job you hired him for? and yeah, he was probably a prick.

FDR - hate him for domestic policy, think he worked too hard to involve us in WWII. He was one of the best politicians in history, have to respect him for that, even though you should fear him for it, too. Have to think he did well considering.

Truman - inherited FDR's problems, made cold war worse, handled hot points well though.

Ike - any man talking aobut giving nuclear mortar to the Army scares me a bit. wasn't all that spectacular in my mind.

JFK - disagree with him on extending and encouraging FDR's programs, and most of the rest of his domestic, but he did a hell of a job on foreign policy. bay of pigs was everybody's fault, including his but not his alone. what could anyone have done better in the cuban missile or berlin crises?

LBJ - most useless usurper in history. other than civil rights act, accomplished nothing and set other things further back. great society is more responsible for problems today than any other presidential initiative.

Reagan - visionary, though not above mind fucking you in a speech to get there. another very good politician, respect it and fear it.

GHWB - I gotta go with quade, the man worked well with what he had. think he could have done better with long term economic planning

Clinton - you he did have sexual relations wtih that woman. ahd no backbone for foreign engagements, but not above usig them when the ratings went south. turned armed forces into police/peace keepers. only saving grace is he made people laugh.

Dubya - handled 9/11 as well as you could expect, good job in Afghanistan, gotta question a lot (everything?) since then.

(1) Teddy
(2) JFK
(3) Reagan
(4) Bush the first
(5) I honestly don't know who did the least harm after these four. FDR I suppose.

When will we find a president who doesn't hire out America's dirty work? It comes back to hit us twice as hard later on, every single time. Just about every SAmerican rebellion or dictator we aided has been totally FUBAR. Muhajadeen, anyone? Contras soudn familiar?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[quade 4]

BTW, here is an interesting page I found that might help you in your research.

http://www.presidentsusa.net/presidentialrankings.html

In particular . . .

http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/overall.asp

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Kennedy 0]

other than Wislon and LBJ, I'm almost 100% for that list. Cool. It's nice to know intelligetn people agree with me.

some nit picking here and there, but hey, when they're right, they're right.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Gawain 0]

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Woody Wislon - did his damnedest to ruin this country. We fought WWI because of him.
He failed at every large venture he undertook. Ranks as one of my five worst all time.

Don't forget the Lucitania and the Zimmermann letter. We had to act in WWI after those events. He designed a framework for the League of Nations, certainly not perfect, but he couldn't capitalize on his war record to get Congress to ratify/approve US participation.

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FDR - hate him for domestic policy, think he worked too hard to involve us in WWII.

Pearl Harbor?

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Truman - inherited FDR's problems, made cold war worse,

I'm curious to hear/read more of your opinion on this? How did he make it worse? It began during his administration.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[quade 4]

Yeah, the only real thing wrong with it is that the list is dated and doesn't include GWB, but, uh, well, maybe that's just as well at this point . . . it'd cause too many arguments anyway.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Kennedy 0]

OK, rephrase, he didn't make it worse, but I think he steered it to a harsher course. Now, I'm not forgetting it takes two to tango, but it didn't have to go down as gang warfare from the get-go. How many lives did the bomb really save? I still have to think he dropped the bomb more for the Russians than the Japanese. Truman tried strong arming the Russians on trivial shit, and they had no choice but to tell him to go to hell, and once they had their bomb (not too long later), both sides had to figure things out in a new world.

FDR - the man did everything he could to involve us in WWII, and quite possibly his actions lead directly to pearl harbor. However, most blame must fall back to Wilson and WWI. WWII was coming no matter what after that.

I'd be happy to run the ins and outs of this over some beers, but you're in CA and I'm damn tired now. Peace.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[AggieDave 6]

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you forget to mention that Reagan ran up a deficit and that by the end of the Clinton Administration it had been -entirely- paid off

What did I say about the strong economy? If you think that it was due to Clinton's ability to manipulate the economy to spur that quick of a rate of a change, then I have far over estimated your understanding of the economy, history and how it all is effected by a sitting president.

The downsizing and dismanteling of the military did help eleviate some of the deficite spending, but that is also due to the end of the cold war. It should not have happened as sharply as it did (as proven with 9/11...I'm not going to explain that, just draw the line between defense spending and intelligence gathering).

The point is that Reagon's initiatives gave way to a very strong economy in the 1990s due to the technology sector, Clinton's inability to impliment proper economic plans to curb the forseen economic explosion in the beginning of his first term gave way to what was left of the economy going into 2001.

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GWB has now recreated (surpassed in fact) the deficit to pass along to his successor.

Think about what led up to this. I'm surprised you actually stated that since I would have thought you understood the reasons for this. No, not the "war on terror", more to the point the military was in a state of unreadiness to be deployed in force as done recently due to the dismantling of our defense structure. More to the point, entire organizations are having to be basically rebuilt to actually do their jobs (CIA and NSA for example). This happened do to the extreme cuts that the Clinton administration begain adminstering during the beginning of Clinton's first term.

More to the point, history repeats its self. Every single time in American history that our military and defense structure has been built up to a certain point for a certain purpose, it has been destroyed after that specific purpose has been accomplished. This leaves the country's defense structure in a constant state of flux: growing then downsizing. With each fluxuation the economy and the country's safety as a whole suffers. If you really want I could sit down and list out each instance, but I'm sure you don't want that.

Clinton was not one of the top 5 in the 20th century, point blank, the reasons people list him as such are reasons that can not be attributed to him. A large number of the reasons the country was in the spot it was in during 2001 and 2002 (in which we are still trying to overcome the effects) are directly related to Clinton's initive and lack there of in certain specific issues.

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Anyway, I think this thread is about who YOU think is in the top five, not argue about it.

Exactly, that's what I'm doing, I'm proving my point about two people on the list. One that should be on there and one that should not be on there. You just happened to give me the proper platform to express my views of history, which this thread is specifically about.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[tunaplanet 0]

Better yet, just go to Snopes. That website is the God of all websites. That site NEVER lies. When in doubt, go there and blindly believe whatever it tells you while holding your hands out like a mummy making sheep noises.

Forty-two

[lawrocket 3]

I'll do it quade style..

1. William McKinley - the guy got elected to a second term. He was dominated by foreign policy. He tried to stay out of war, but could not stem the demand from America or Congress. 100 days' war in Cuba. Shortly after re-election, he was capped by an anarchist. His shooting was actually one of the first uses the x-ray machine - to locate a bullet.

2. Teddy Roosevelt - a good one. War man. As much of a statesman as we have had. Tough mo-fo, who actually got shot and finished a speech (his speech was so thick, it mostly stopped the bullet.

3. Taft - a guy caught between two movements. A true moderate. That's why he couldn't be re-elected. He repudiated Teddy's expansion of presidential power, calling many of his actions illegal (he was probably right). Appointed to Chief Justice of SUpreme Court by Harding.

4. Woodrow Wilson - perhaps the most intelligent and charismatic president ever. This guy had some truly remarkable original ideas. I disagreed with most, but I put him in the top 5. His ideas continued to this day as a first true progressive. Unsiccessful at staying out of WWI.

5. Harding - Right place, right time. Laissez faire. If it wasn't broke, don't fix it. Problem was, he did nothing but act extravagantly. Acted more like a divine right king, but didn't do much to directly harm.

6. Coolidge - another cool dude. Not much for talk. His main action was inaction and reverse action. It worked in the 20s. He was pretty popular.

7. Hoover - most successful before being president. He was a true humanitarian, sending relief to Europe after the WWI. Wrong place, wrong time as pres. His response to the depression - just months after the election - was to cut taxes and increase public works spending. He got no cooperation from Congress (controlled by political opponents) who used the depression for their political gain, calling him cruel, heartless and uncaring. He lost badly in 1932, and was an outspoken critic of the New Deal and it's increase in statism. As much a political victim as anything.

8. FDR - possibly the greatest. He made the model for presidential tenure. Promise giveaways and giveaway. nine years of presidency did not help get the US out of the Depression, but I'll stick to quade's analysis. He was great, though. He took the presidency to a new level of power.,

9. Truman - I admire and disrespect his balls. He ended WWII. He would get repudiated by the Supreme Court. But, he started integration.

10. Ike. Military guy, well repected. Nice guy, but dont' mess with him. In the middle

11. Kennedy - top 5. Everyone knows about him.

12. LBJ - one of the lesser president's, in my opinion. Great Society plans, Vietnam debacle.

13. Nixon - great foreign policy. We are building on it still. Lousy domestic policy.

14. Gerald Ford - Not much of anything to say about him.

15. Jimmy Carter - the most idealistic president entering office. Reluctant pragmatist when he left. A hugely unsuccessful president for foreign and domestic issues.

16. Reagan - in my opinion, the greatest. Samet enough to know he wasn't the brightest guy. Confident enough to admit it and let his cabinet handle things. Too hands off, at times. Rest of the world thought him just crazy enough to nuke the USSR. Restored technology industry through policies. 1986 Tax Reform Act one of the best laws to come out of Congress (with help of Rostonkowski) in 50 years. Outlasted deep spending of USSR.

17. George Bush - Made a model for presidential warmaking. Domestically not too savvy.

18. Clinton - one of the top five greatest. Like Reagan, people just liked him. Like Kennedy, he had some personality deficits. Like Nixon, he abused his power to suit his needs. Like Carter, he was idealistic. Like FDR, he knew that getting votes meant giving away. He knew how to work in a system. In 1994, he was about as unpopular as could be, leading to the Republican takeover of Congress in 1994 elections. Once his power and goals were checked, he did exceedingly well. His popularity and promise of good times euqated with Harding making an economy on the bubble, which popped.

19. GWB - Like Reagan, the guy has a vision and the cojones to make it known. Is not the best politician, for he says what he believes rather than what people want to hear. Turned a wrong place, wrong time into a right right right time, into a wrong place, wrong time.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[tunaplanet 0]

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I'll do it quade style..

Negative. Quade style would be to trash every Republican regardless of their acheivements.

Forty-two

[newsstand 0]

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Better yet, just go to Snopes. That website is the God of all websites. That site NEVER lies. When in doubt, go there and blindly believe whatever it tells you while holding your hands out like a mummy making sheep noises.

Not entirely true.

Start here.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[lawrocket 3]

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I'll do it quade style..

Negative. Quade style would be to trash every Republican regardless of their acheivements.

Not quite, tuna. We all know quade's leanings, but I'll at least give him credit for citing his sources. While I disagree with him much of the time, his thoughts are typically pretty lucid.

Meanwhile, I am curious about your choice of Carter in your top 5. Not to bust you, sinc emy fiancee admires him, as well. Bt what about him did you like?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[quade 4]

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Negative. Quade style would be to trash every Republican regardless of their acheivements.

I'm curious, did you actually read my commentary or just assume it was all trash talk?

Guess you overlooked my comments on:

Teddy Roosevelt
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Richard Nixon
George Bush (41)

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver