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[billvon 3,080]

>what's the problem with sitting for 5 minutes, taking in the moment (dealing with the shock).

You're a skydiver, and you're asking this?

We don't live in an age of telegrams any more. Wars can begin and be won 30 minutes later. That's why the football was developed, so if Cuba (for example) launched a missile attack against the US, we could respond before our command and control centers were destroyed.

It's been shown that minutes matter. The third plane hit the Pentagon 40 minutes after the second plane hit the second tower, thus showing we were under a coordinated attack rather than the victim of a lone lunatic. Two F-15's were launched ten minutes before the second jet crashed into the WTC; their range and speed were such that they could have intercepted Flight 175 had they taken off just five minutes sooner.

Still think five minutes doesn't matter?

I agree that some people simply cannot act quickly under pressure. I've seen first jump students who can't; I'm sure you have. If you want someone like that as president, vote accordingly this November.

[crzjp20 0]

bill i got to ask you about this football... yah i know i posted on it already but with what you just said it sounds like we should have launched nukes at them.

it was 5 minutes. 5 minuts that he sat there and didnt overreact and freak out the kids, 5 minutes that he didnt act out of fear, or anger, 5 minutes that he took and thought.

In the service i have been trained to make battle field decission in less than 30 seconds... the most critical part of the battle. But he is a commander and cheif and he requires more time. What do you think Kerry would have done, or gore for that matter. Probaly the same thing. i can garentee you it doesnt take bush to order 2 f15's up in the air. That is why we have JOC, the Pentagon, and countless generals, to make those battle field decissions. Yeah if those plane would have gotten to that last plane you can bet that it would have required bush to order them to engage that target, why? cause they would be shooting down american citizens.

In those 5 minutes i imagine he could not have done much of anything besides get on the horn with the pentagoin who would have told him they were taking actions to prevent any further strikes. I also imagine that during those 5 minutes his advisors with him were crafting a statment to the country, which he gave some 10 minutes or so after gettig the first word.

Bill i know you hate bush, but come on. it was 5 minutes. What wuold you have done?

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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[Jimbo 0]

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You're a skydiver, and you're asking this?

Apparently so. But I haven't jumped in a month or so, so cut me some slack.

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That's why the football was developed, so if Cuba (for example) launched a missile attack against the US, we could respond before our command and control centers were destroyed.

We should have used nuclear weapons against.... who?

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It's been shown that minutes matter. The third plane hit the Pentagon 40 minutes after the second plane hit the second tower, thus showing we were under a coordinated attack rather than the victim of a lone lunatic. Two F-15's were launched ten minutes before the second jet crashed into the WTC; their range and speed were such that they could have intercepted Flight 175 had they taken off just five minutes sooner.

You're right, it's been shown... Unfortunately it was shown after the fact. Had the F15s intercepted the last plane, what do you suggest that they should have done?

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Still think five minutes doesn't matter?

In this case, yes. I think that in the grand scheme of things, that the 5 minutes the President took did not significantly change the outcome on September 11th, 2001.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[billvon 3,080]

>Had the F15s intercepted the last plane, what do you suggest that
>they should have done?

1. Determine who was flying it visually
2. Relay that information
3. Try to force it down using standard visual signals
4. Disable it (take out an engine.)
5. And if all that fails, blow it out of the sky.

4 and 5 were effectively out of the question, since only the president can order such things. From a 1999 CNN article:

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But even if an unguided plane were on a collision course with the center of a major city, military planes could not take aim and pull the trigger unless they received permission from the White House because only the president has the authority to order a civilian aircraft shot down.
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And the president was in a classroom listening to kids read.

[quade 4]

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In this case, yes. I think that in the grand scheme of things, that the 5 minutes the President took did not significantly change the outcome on September 11th, 2001.

I guess the point is that we are ONLY aware of that after the fact.

What if there would have been more airliners that had been taken over? We have no idea how that would have turned out due to the President's inaction for an additional five minutes.

Further, all Andy Card said to him was that we were under attack. I dunno about you, but if someone I trust says to me that we're under attack my first instinct is going to be to find out to what extent we're under attack. 30 or so kids in a class room is not the President's problem. The safety of the Nation is.

National security is -THE- first priority of the President.

I really don't understand -anyone- that doesn't get this.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,080]

>30 or so kids in a class room is not the President's problem. The
> safety of the Nation is.

Well, I'd say they are both his problem, but protecting the nation from attack benefits both the 30 kids and the entire US, whereas listening to them read benefits only the 30 kids. Tough call under pressure, perhaps, but being president is a job where you need to make tough calls.

[crzjp20 0]

i totaly agree it is a job that requires him to make tough calls, but at the same time i dont want one that is going to make decissions on national security without thinking it though. I imagine he was thaking that time with those kids and his mind was racing, and he probly was making those decission at that time.

It was 5 minutes.... if it was 10 seconds you would probly still be saying he didnt act fast enough.

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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[Jimbo 0]

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1. Determine who was flying it visually
2. Relay that information
3. Try to force it down using standard visual signals
4. Disable it (take out an engine.)
5. And if all that fails, blow it out of the sky.

4 and 5 were effectively out of the question, since only the president can order such things.

I think 4 and 5 were effectively out of the question because by the time they got to 4, the plane would have already been a part of the Pentagon. That's just me though.

I think you're reaching with the 5 minutes thing, Bill.

Let's suppose though that they had shot the plane down. What would have been the impact? Remember, we've got a determined pilot heading for a population center. How many dead Americans? How many dead civilians?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[billvon 3,080]

>Let's suppose though that they had shot the plane down. What would
> have been the impact? Remember, we've got a determined pilot
> heading for a population center. How many dead Americans? How
> many dead civilians?

I think they would have thought of the person who brought the third plane down in the same light they think of Todd Beamer, the man who led the charge to bring the fourth plane down. People being people, had all four planes been shot down, the uproar would have been incredible. "Where was the proof that they were terrorists?" But once they had proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were terrorists in multiple planes out to kill thousands of americans, I think there isn't much question about what the right thing to do is.

How many dead civilians did we get by not doing anything? Around 2000.

[Jimbo 0]

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How many dead civilians did we get by not doing anything? Around 2000.

In the context of this conversation, Bill, it's entirely unfair to count the causalties from the trade center and the plane that went down in PA. Don't you think?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[billvon 3,080]

>In the context of this conversation, Bill, it's entirely unfair to count
> the causalties from the trade center and the plane that went down in
> PA. Don't you think?

I don't think so. I think it's reasonable to assume that the fourth plane was going to do what the other three did. So how many people died on the fourth plane due to Todd Beamer, and how many people would have died if that aircraft had made it to the Capital Building, or the White House? That's why Beamer is considered more a hero than a murderer, even if he did sentence 65 people to death (and even if he did endanger people on the ground.)

Put in that context, I think people would have thought the same of anyone (president, general, pilot etc) who took down the third plane.

[Ron 10]

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So lemme get this straight . . .

Ron, if the location were changed and he was in the White House at the time, you would have been fine with him staying in the residence or Oval Office for an extra 5 minutes rather than immediately going down to the situation room?

Big difference between the White House and some school in SRQ.....The WHOLE White House is locked tight.

If he were in the White House I don't think he would have had the luxury of sitting anywhere...The Secret Service would have moved him for his saftey.

Any idea what the VP was doing at that time?

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I think the President -does- need to be able to react at a moments notice to any crisis anywhere in the world. Five minutes is an awfully long time to just sit there

If he did jump up and start reacting right then....what could he have done? You remember Pearl Harbor? We didn't just jump up and start bombing shit 5 min later...And we were pretty much ready to fight then....This was a sucker punch. No one REALLY saw it comming.

1st. I think the SS told him to stay put till they had checked the exit plan again. He is the CiC of the Armed forces....So it is kinda important that he does not end up with a bullet in his head. A sudden change in normal operations opens gaps that can be used to hit him.

2nd. I think there was frankly a shock value...I know when I was told while in the Army at a military school...No one believed the cadre when they told us. I think honestly that he wanted to freak out..I would have...You the most powerful man in the world has just been told that your country is under attack...An attack that was not forseen, and the worse since WWII. I don't think ANYONE would have been able to react to that news in 30 seconds.

3rd. You have to think before you react. You can't attack when you don't know where or who to attack. I'm glad he just didn't start dropping nukes. I don't want a knee jerk reaction starting WWIII.

I can't blame the man.

So unless you KNOW the SS didn't tell him to sit and hold. And unless you think YOU would have handled the situation better (And I don't think ANYONE could have). And unless you want a guy that does not think before he acts sitting on the largest supply of nukes....

I would say you should not have a problem with 5 min.

There is NOTHING he could have done anyway. He cant hop into his Limo with a Flux capacitor speed to 88 MPH and go back in time, hop in an attack jet and shoot down the planes.

I have no issue with 5 min.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Right, and the head of the armed forces often has to give orders quickly. You know what the football is, right? In an age where a war can be won in 30 minutes you have to be able to be a leader in a matter of minutes. I'd prefer someone who can. You may not; that's fine.

#1. Unless you have proof that the SS didn't tell him to stay put....I am gonna have to bet they did. And unless you know more about military tactics than I do...Im gonna go with my feelings.

#2. I doubt anyone could have reacted in 30 seconds.....He was just told that he is now the president of a country at war. And it has been attacked. An attack that was the worse on US soil since WWII. If he needed 5 min to compose himself...Good. I needed a couple of days. How long where you messed up?

#3 I'd rather have a guy in office that thinks before he starts launching nukes....You may not.. Thats just scarry.

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And based on what you have posted so far you know even less. We both still vote. Choose wisely.

You lefties will find fault with anything the man does.... He is still a man, and I bet no one else would have handled that situation better.

You clearly don't know squat about being a human. You spend to much time with computers.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I think they would have thought of the person who brought the third plane down in the same light they think of Todd Beamer, the man who led the charge to bring the fourth plane down

bill even if they had two planes hit and they had mananged to shoot down the 3rd or 4th....You would be screaming that the had no proof that there were hijackers on board and you would say the President killed innocent people.

You clearly don't work in anyplace where you have to make big choices quickly.

And your hatred for anything Bush does is so clear.

I don't think ANYONE would have handled that situation better.

And I bet Gore was thanking god that he was not able to steal the last election.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Your number 2 conflicts 1

No they don't.

#2 you are in the White House. You have permanent escape plans in place...And you have a bunker on site. You are in a totaly controled environment

#1. You are in a school with good practiced plans. But you are not in a controled environment. No president has been assasinated while in his residence.

Go rent "Delta Force" again.

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What he should have done, was immediately make an effort to get more information

You think the PRESIDENT needs to actually ORDER people to get more info at a time like that? You also think he needs to call a front line during a war and tell that PFC its OK to shoot a bad guy that is firing on him?

I bet him "ordering" the intelegence community to get more info would be up just like if you ordered the sun to rise. They were already working on it....Him standing there would not speed things up one bit.

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And I'm not grasping at anything. I was giving examples of what he could have done if possible. They might not have been possible,

Since you don't know maybe you should not be slamming the guy?

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but the fact of the matter is, he sat there, and did nothing. Not one thing, not a question to anyone, not anything. Did you even watch the video?

Yes I ahve seen the video....He looks good for a guy that has just been told that he is now in charge of a country that has just been attacked....I would have freaked out. What would you have done?

I think he showed amazing resolve. He didn't freak out...He knew there was nothing he could do at that time without more intel. He didn't start barking orders with no direction...What would like him to do? Freak out and order a nuke attack on Delta's HQ's.

He didn't know WHO did WHAT. He only knew that two planes were used in an attack.

I think he did the right thing...

But it's clear you and Bill think he should have nuked something 30 seconds after he was told....

What would you have done?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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I think he showed amazing resolve. He didn't freak out...He knew there was nothing he could do at that time without more intel.

Since he didn't know what the situation was, how did he know there was nothing he could do? Did God tell him? He should have been getting the intel, not sitting there.

I'm not claiming there was any act he could have done in retrospect. But there's no way for him to know that while sitting in that class room. Circumstances could have existed that required his IMMEDIATE attention, but he wouldn't have known that because he just sat there.

[piisfish 140]

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so if Cuba (for example) launched a missile attack against the US,

they through a cigar attack at Bill Clinton, but they hit Monica instead...

To everybody, please, don't vote for the same than last time... Even if his election is still not very clear.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[TheAnvil 0]

Hmmm....obviously I hit something here. A supposed strong point for Mr. Kerry so easily shown as a weakness must have taken you offguard Bill.

The reason it's not on Mr. Bush's website is because it needs no explanation. If you think hard about it, I'l sure you'll figure out why and laugh at yourself later.

Your subject change aside, Mr. Kerry hasn't a lot of credibility on supporting the troops. Or any other issue for that matter. Neither does GWB, but he at least maintains SOME credibility in certain areas.

Mr. Bush's victory over alcoholism is one of the greatest testaments to his character. Compare and contrast his incident and his response to it with that of everyone's favorite Harvard expelee and the difference is obvious.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Ron 10]

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Since he didn't know what the situation was, how did he know there was nothing he could do? Did God tell him? He should have been getting the intel, not sitting there

You think he needs to ASK for information?

You think the whole intel comunity has information, but is just going to sit on it till they get a call from Bush to say "Pretty please give me some more intel on this largest attack on the US in 50 years"?

You think we had thouseands of intel community guys playing Tetris or watching soaps till Bush called up and asked them to work on this latest "problem"?

Do you really think that:

A. People were just sitting waiting for a word from the President before they started looking into that situation? If you do think that then we are all screwed.

B. that if they did have some good information besides what they already told him...That he could not be reached sitting in a room full of kids?

"Hey guys...we know where the next plane is going to hit...We know who is behind it, and we have his address where he is right now. The only problem is I don't want to interupt the CiC...He seems to be having a fine time with the kids in there."

Get real.

The intelegence community does not need to be told to get information about an event that large....To think that it would take an Executive inquiry to get anything started is stupid.

To think that he could get better information in another room instead of where he was..Is also foolish.

He knew he would get any information as soon as it was availible.

He stayed cool instead of freaking out...And you want to use that against him.

You really do think strange.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

You just don't get it. Yes other people were doing things, no they didn't need orders to take action. But the freakin' guys job is not to sit there like a stump. If someone were firing a gun at you, would you sit there for 5 minutes and think about how you are going to react?

[Ron 10]

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You just don't get it.

No, you don't get it. The Presidents job is not to fly a fighter jet, pull a trigger ect.

If he had to order people to look into that situation...Then the WHOLE system is fucked up.

Which BTW he didn't have to order people...The National Security Systemdoes not wait for the "Go ahead" from the CiC before they start looking into ANYTHING.

What you think someone would not interrupt him if they had something to tell him? Then why did they interrupt him to tell him about the situation at all? You think they had more information, but didn't want to tell him? You think that if they had more information they would have withheld it, or not bothered to pull the President out if they could not tell him in there?

Come to what we call the "real world". They told him what they knew. He knew that there was nothing he could have done at that second, and he knew that they would give him more info when they had it, and he also knew he was not going to have to beg for the information once they had it.

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Yes other people were doing things, no they didn't need orders to take action

So what the hell could he have done? You already admitted he could do nothing that was not already being done.

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But the freakin' guys job is not to sit there like a stump

Its also not they guys job to freak out on TV and order a Nuclear attack without any good information.

It is his job to project a cool image under fire, and not break out into hysterics. It is his job to THINK before he reacts. And he did just that, and he did it better than anyone else I could imagine.

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If someone were firing a gun at you, would you sit there for 5 minutes and think about how you are going to react?

Again you show how you know nothing about tactics or operations. If under DIRECT fire you:
1. Move and get cover.

2. Identify the target and return fire. You don't just start pulling a trigger at the first round that comes your way.

3. Communicate the threat.

4. Decide if you can contain the threat..If you can you try to gain fire superiority, maneuver and eliminate the enemy...If you can't you provide cover fire and try to retreat.

If you get a radio call about a threat 1,000 miles away you don't freak out and start shooting. You wait for better intel.

He could have done NOTHING. He had to wait for better intel, which you yourself said was working without his asking. He stayed calm WHICH IS HIS JOB. He didnt react before he knew the threat WHICH IS HIS JOB. And when he got better intel...He declared war on Terror...

And all you can do is bitch about him.

You know NOTHING about how the military operates. You know NOTHING about how the chain of command works. You know NOTHING about the job of the President in relation to War.

To think that he could have done anything is stupid.
To blame him for not freaking out is stupid.

And it just shows your hatred of him...That you just go around looking to bitch about something...

In this case he did things right, and you just don't understand why it's right.

Maybe next time you should rent "Navy SEALS" instead of "Delta Force" You need to expand your knowledge of how things like this work.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334