billvon 3,080
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>As I recall, it was at first thought an airplane had "accidently" hit the first tower.
I have no idea what "was thought." Bush was told by his aide (and this is a direct quote) that "America is under attack." He was sitting in a classroom, and hadn't heard many details. And he just sat there. If that's the sort of leadership you want in an age where a war can be won in 30 minutes, more power to you.
>So you think he should use his campaign contributions to give to
>the Firemen?
No, just do what he promised he would.
>Hey, I know, Kerry could pay for his tax increases and social
> programs the same way.
?? You don't pay for tax increases; tax increases pay for excessive spending. If you spend spend spend and take in less money, you run a huge deficit with all its attending problems. It makes about as much sense as solving your impending bankruptcy by applying for more credit cards. But again, if that's the way you want the economy run, your choice in November is clear.
I have no idea what "was thought." Bush was told by his aide (and this is a direct quote) that "America is under attack." He was sitting in a classroom, and hadn't heard many details. And he just sat there. If that's the sort of leadership you want in an age where a war can be won in 30 minutes, more power to you.
>So you think he should use his campaign contributions to give to
>the Firemen?
No, just do what he promised he would.
>Hey, I know, Kerry could pay for his tax increases and social
> programs the same way.
?? You don't pay for tax increases; tax increases pay for excessive spending. If you spend spend spend and take in less money, you run a huge deficit with all its attending problems. It makes about as much sense as solving your impending bankruptcy by applying for more credit cards. But again, if that's the way you want the economy run, your choice in November is clear.
Quote>As I recall, it was at first thought an airplane had "accidently" hit the first tower.
I have no idea what "was thought." Bush was told by his aide (and this is a direct quote) that "America is under attack." He was sitting in a classroom, and hadn't heard many details. And he just sat there. If that's the sort of leadership you want in an age where a war can be won in 30 minutes, more power to you.
This has to be one of the most simplistic statements I've read for a while. What was he supposed to do? He looked to me like he was trying to remain calm and not upset a class full of Elementary School students. What, do you think the military was just standing by doing nothing until Bush told them what to do? You have no concept of how our National Defense Systems work if you truly believe this.
>Hey, I know, Kerry could pay for his tax increases and social
> programs the same way.
Quote?? You don't pay for tax increases; tax increases pay for excessive spending. If you spend spend spend and take in less money, you run a huge deficit with all its attending problems. It makes about as much sense as solving your impending bankruptcy by applying for more credit cards. But again, if that's the way you want the economy run, your choice in November is clear.
When money is coming out of my pocket to pay for something, I'm paying for it. Thanks for the lesson in economics. Duh.....
You know Bill, this statement in itself has finally given me an insight into the Liberal Mind. I've been trying to figure it out for a long time but I think I'm finally starting to understand.
Many of the Liberals are content just work, day in day out and at the end of the week, you get pretty much the same paycheck. You then have a steady base on which you can carefully plan your budget. So much for this, so much for that. Whenever anything happens to upset this, it puts you Libs into a "panic mode" and Libs start looking for a bailout. Unemployment Compensation, Cobra etc. Now hold that thought for a second and understand I'm not talking about all Libs. Just that this is a mindset I see more often in Libs.
On the other hand, you have people like... well, I'll use myself as an example. My check at the end of the week isn't guaranteed. If I really busted my ass last week and "produce" then my company brings in a lot of money. If I blow the week off and screw around, then my company doesn't do as well. I am also subject to constantly changing economics and even environmental highs and lows. I've had to learned to save money during the slow times and occasionally, I have to borrow against future earnings and then pay it back when things pick up.
When told you need to solve your own problems, desperation sets in and you start blaming Politicians and saying crazy things like:
"The President Lost millions of jobs."
"The President is responsible for me not having a job."
"The President hasn't provided me with Free healthcare."
Far too many need someone to come in and bail them out and do for them what they failed to do for themselves. So, I think after a while, Libs start to think of the income I work hard to produce as sort of theirs too.
This I think explains at least somewhat why many of the young are Liberal but as they get older and start to work really hard, they become more conservative. They look at those with their hands out with a little contempt because they know in America that anybody can make it if they are willing to work hard.
So, yeah. When I get home at 11pm and back up at 6 am and then some Politician comes along and tells me he's going to jack up my tax rate to pay for prescription drugs for someone who failed to save for their retirement or to support the child of some teenager who was too slutty and dumb to use birth control and now I gotta pay for it, it pisses me off.
Edited to add:
Now when you apply this same budgeting mentality towards how Libs think govt should be run, the problems become fairly obvious.
Quote
Rarely has the U.S. been more divided on their opinions of the person holding the office of the President. The candidate that ran under the guise of being a "uniter, not a divider" has in fact driven a wedge in this country and has fairly evenly split the country.
Al Gore polarized the country when he tried to steal the election.
Funny, I know a lot of people that feel Bush stole it. Are we going to start that argument again?
I will miss Bush when he loses the election - his office has made for some great comedy on "The Daily Show."
And GravityMaster - Yup, us Libs want your money - so where is my allowance????
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
rehmwa 2
I think it's amazing how people can bash GWB for staying with the children and making sure they weren't completely freaked out on 9/11. It's nice that liberals are so 'sensitive' that they can ignore the humans right in front of them and endorse a knee jerk response.
It's also amazing how they can say GWB's campaign is attacking and isn't on the issues after every single dem debate question, interview and ad are without content and restricted to attack mode only.
Clinton started his reelection campaign by complimenting Bob Dole and the others and requesting campaign on the issues, just like GWB did after Super Tuesday. With seeing the current fit and the division Al Gore caused (good observation), I almost miss the redneck from Arkansas - at least you knew what you were getting.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
It's also amazing how they can say GWB's campaign is attacking and isn't on the issues after every single dem debate question, interview and ad are without content and restricted to attack mode only.
Clinton started his reelection campaign by complimenting Bob Dole and the others and requesting campaign on the issues, just like GWB did after Super Tuesday. With seeing the current fit and the division Al Gore caused (good observation), I almost miss the redneck from Arkansas - at least you knew what you were getting.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Ron 10
QuoteI have no idea what "was thought." Bush was told by his aide (and this is a direct quote) that "America is under attack." He was sitting in a classroom, and hadn't heard many details. And he just sat there. If that's the sort of leadership you want in an age where a war can be won in 30 minutes, more power to you.
Hey Bill...There is a fire at a DZ...Quick do something to save us.
However you don't know which DZ, or what other DZ's might be on fire.
So what do you do? Run around and scream? No, you have to get info before you attack back. Who Attacked us? Delta? American Airlines? OBL? Saddam? Should be send in Special Forces to Delta's corp headquarters?
Also..one thing I bet you never thought of....Ya know a very well used way to assasinate someone? Get them to break the protection plan they have in place. Someone like the President has a very well rehearsed protection plan....The best way to find get to him is make them break the standard plan. He then becomes more of an open target....Ya think maybe the Secret Service told him to stay put till they secured the exit plan? If I was on his detail I would not let him just get up and run out. I'd have him stay put till I could secure the area...I bet all the details senses were on MAX.
Something for you to consider before you claim he did nothing.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 10
QuoteRarely has the U.S. been more divided on their opinions of the person holding the office of the President.
Uh....Like every 4 years?
The Nation was quite divided on Clinton. It hapens every time it comes near to an election.
DO I think Bush is the greatest thing? Nope. But he has shown good leadership in some very hard times.
I bet Gore was glad he didn't win on 9/11. Any man would not want that.
I don't think Bush has done bad as a leader. Im not sure ANYONE could have done as well.
Sometimes being a leader means people are not going to like you.
I'd rather have a guy that does what he thinks is right, than have a guy that tries to please everyone.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
kallend 2,112
QuoteI don't see anything negative. Unless of course unless you call telling the truth negative.
That's exactly correct. The Bush ad told the truth about what Kerry said, and Kerry told the truth about the Bush administration..
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteI think it's amazing how people can bash GWB for staying with the children and making sure they weren't completely freaked out on 9/11.
"Excuse me kids, I'm president and have to go take care of some important business right now. I'll be back to talk to you again soon."....get up, walk out. Is that going to "freak out" the kids. And even if he did freak out a handful of kids...the whole rest of the country was already freaking out.
And, that 5 minutes was after he was told the 2nd plane hit the towers.
QuoteClinton started his reelection campaign by complimenting Bob Dole and the others and requesting campaign on the issues, just like GWB did after Super Tuesday.
What issues are those that GWB offered to campaign on? The gay marriage, cencorship and steroids in baseball issues that he's using to distract everyone, or the issues that the majority of us want to know the answers to?
crzjp20 0
ron i think your preatty much right on the money here. Think about this: if he would have reacted in a mannor of getting up and running out and getting all worked up, what do you think those kids whould have thought/done. Not to mention when he first got that message they didnt know if it was a freak acident or if it was an attack. After the second plane it came very clear.
im not goingto get in a shouting debat, so everyone please keep a sence of humor.
blue skys
im not goingto get in a shouting debat, so everyone please keep a sence of humor.
blue skys
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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.
Ron 10
Quote"Excuse me kids, I'm president and have to go take care of some important business right now. I'll be back to talk to you again soon."....get up, walk out. Is that going to "freak out" the kids. And even if he did freak out a handful of kids...the whole rest of the country was already freaking out.
And, that 5 minutes was after he was told the 2nd plane hit the towers.
And I refer you to this. I'm willing to bet that the Secret Service was not going to let him leave a secured area until they had a good escape plan.
QuoteAlso..one thing I bet you never thought of....Ya know a very well used way to assasinate someone? Get them to break the protection plan they have in place. Someone like the President has a very well rehearsed protection plan....The best way to find get to him is make them break the standard plan. He then becomes more of an open target....Ya think maybe the Secret Service told him to stay put till they secured the exit plan? If I was on his detail I would not let him just get up and run out. I'd have him stay put till I could secure the area...I bet all the details senses were on MAX.
I know guys in the SS...They will not talk about stuff like this in particular, but we have talked about general security issues before. It's safer to keep a guy in a secure place than move him on any contigency plan you might have.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
So, I guess there wasn't a private room adjoining the class room, or a way to get the kids out of the classroom so that he could get details from his advisors? Come on, you're grasping.
crzjp20 0
i disagree kev. The bottom line wsa that he was in a room full of kids who would not have understood if he got up and left. And i imagine if he had taken that course of action the liberrals of this country would probly say he should have stayed with the kids. Why? Cause no matter what he does, they will disagee.
Next i imagine the SS did have an escape plan. I have a good friend who served under clinton and he tld me that when they go to anyplace they are there at lesat 48 hours before mappig out every senerio to protect the president. I imagine they knew how they were goign to get him out, if they felt he was at an imediate threat.
to say there wasnt a provate room or what ever in my opinion is grasping. Neither you or I know the layout of that building, and we sure as hell dont know how the SS works.
Lastly, what would you like to see him have done? Leave the room and go to defcom 4 and launch nukes at every ahrib nation? He had to have time to think, and time to react. You know we had Special Forces troops inside of afganastn within hours of the attack? He was taking dirrect action, but you can not expect him to get upset, or be hurried out by the SS when he is front of 30-40 kids in a small room.
Give the man so credit, He has lead the fight against terrorism when noone else has been willing to do it. I admre him for his stregnth in the face of adversity. He took a stand and said he wasnt backing down. And he has not yet. HAs he done everything right? no way, is he perfect? no way, but he is standing for what he believes. And i salute Pres. Bush for that.
Blue SKys
Next i imagine the SS did have an escape plan. I have a good friend who served under clinton and he tld me that when they go to anyplace they are there at lesat 48 hours before mappig out every senerio to protect the president. I imagine they knew how they were goign to get him out, if they felt he was at an imediate threat.
to say there wasnt a provate room or what ever in my opinion is grasping. Neither you or I know the layout of that building, and we sure as hell dont know how the SS works.
Lastly, what would you like to see him have done? Leave the room and go to defcom 4 and launch nukes at every ahrib nation? He had to have time to think, and time to react. You know we had Special Forces troops inside of afganastn within hours of the attack? He was taking dirrect action, but you can not expect him to get upset, or be hurried out by the SS when he is front of 30-40 kids in a small room.
Give the man so credit, He has lead the fight against terrorism when noone else has been willing to do it. I admre him for his stregnth in the face of adversity. He took a stand and said he wasnt backing down. And he has not yet. HAs he done everything right? no way, is he perfect? no way, but he is standing for what he believes. And i salute Pres. Bush for that.
Blue SKys
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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.
Ron 10
QuoteSo, I guess there wasn't a private room adjoining the class room, or a way to get the kids out of the classroom so that he could get details from his advisors? Come on, you're grasping.
No you are grasping...You have no facts..But to act like he didn't care is more fun I guess?
What, if any, military or police "special package" training or knowledge do you have? Other than renting "Delta Force" 10 times?
Were you there in SRQ when it happened? Do you have one of those cool little ear pieces the Secret Service have?
So I think you are grasping at straws.
Simple facts:
1. There was nothing Bush could have done at that time. The National defense system works without the President. He guides it, but he does not operate it.
2. Even if he was in the White House when it happened (Which if he was in the White House he would have been doing a quick exit stage left) There was really nothing he could have done at that time without more information.
3. Any change in plan compromises the security of the President. ANYTHING from taking him out of that room to removing all the kids from that room.
In that situation: An off site location without permanent contingency plans..The safest thing to do is bunker down till you have a solid escape plan that can be executed at YOUR pace.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
billvon 3,080
>Hey Bill...There is a fire at a DZ...Quick do something to save us.
?? I'm not in charge of any DZ's. Bush is in charge of our armed forces and thus our immediate response to attacks against the US.
"Hey Ron, there's a fire starting at your house." You know your house is locked and only you have the keys, and your dog is in there. What do you do?
a) Sit there for five minutes and listen to a kid tell you a story, because you don't want to upset the kid.
b) Give someone else the keys; tell them to save your dog.
c) Excuse yourself and go save your dog yourself.
>Ya think maybe the Secret Service told him to stay put till they
>secured the exit plan?
They didn't. He's on tape. One person came up to him (Andrew Card) and told him "A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack." No one else talked to him. He just sat there. You can see the tape here:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.htm
?? I'm not in charge of any DZ's. Bush is in charge of our armed forces and thus our immediate response to attacks against the US.
"Hey Ron, there's a fire starting at your house." You know your house is locked and only you have the keys, and your dog is in there. What do you do?
a) Sit there for five minutes and listen to a kid tell you a story, because you don't want to upset the kid.
b) Give someone else the keys; tell them to save your dog.
c) Excuse yourself and go save your dog yourself.
>Ya think maybe the Secret Service told him to stay put till they
>secured the exit plan?
They didn't. He's on tape. One person came up to him (Andrew Card) and told him "A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack." No one else talked to him. He just sat there. You can see the tape here:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.htm
Ron 10
Quote?? I'm not in charge of any DZ's. Bush is in charge of our armed forces and thus our immediate response to attacks against the US.
Ya know...You would have bitched at him if he had jumped up, removed his suit, put on his superman outfit, flown around the world backwards went back into time and personally flew aboard each plane and saved all the people.
The President HEADS the armed forces...He does not fly a fighter jet anymore.
The Defense system is in place and designed to run without him....He guides it, not operates it.
Quote"Hey Ron, there's a fire starting at your house." You know your house is locked and only you have the keys, and your dog is in there. What do you do?
My neighbors have keys....See how easy that was? I have a plan in place, just like the whole US defense force does. We don't have 500,000 troops waiting for a word from one guy...We have preplanned actions to take in emergency situations.
QuoteThey didn't. He's on tape. One person came up to him (Andrew Card) and told him "A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack." No one else talked to him. He just sat there. You can see the tape here:
Can you see EVERY person on his detail? Can you see if someone gave him a signal to stay put?
Like I said even if he was Superman you would slam him.
And I would like to know your level of military or police training as well.
You are talking about something you know nothing about.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
quade 4
So lemme get this straight . . .
Ron, if the location were changed and he was in the White House at the time, you would have been fine with him staying in the residence or Oval Office for an extra 5 minutes rather than immediately going down to the situation room?
No. I don't think that's how it works.
I think the President -does- need to be able to react at a moments notice to any crisis anywhere in the world. Five minutes is an awfully long time to just sit there.
Ron, if the location were changed and he was in the White House at the time, you would have been fine with him staying in the residence or Oval Office for an extra 5 minutes rather than immediately going down to the situation room?
No. I don't think that's how it works.
I think the President -does- need to be able to react at a moments notice to any crisis anywhere in the world. Five minutes is an awfully long time to just sit there.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
rehmwa 2
I gotta thank you guys for clearing this up for me.
I had no ideas that the president had the keys to the twin towers.
Now it's so clear.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
I had no ideas that the president had the keys to the twin towers.
Now it's so clear.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
quade 4
I think you're confusing the issue.
GWB doesn't have the keys to anything.
He does have the football. 24/7/365.
GWB doesn't have the keys to anything.
He does have the football. 24/7/365.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
billvon 3,080
>The President HEADS the armed forces...He does not fly a fighter jet anymore.
Right, and the head of the armed forces often has to give orders quickly. You know what the football is, right? In an age where a war can be won in 30 minutes you have to be able to be a leader in a matter of minutes. I'd prefer someone who can. You may not; that's fine.
>My neighbors have keys....
No one else has the authority the president does (and no, he can't give it away unless he declares himself unable to perform his duties.) In the example I gave, no one else has your keys. What do you do then?
>You are talking about something you know nothing about.
And based on what you have posted so far you know even less. We both still vote. Choose wisely.
Right, and the head of the armed forces often has to give orders quickly. You know what the football is, right? In an age where a war can be won in 30 minutes you have to be able to be a leader in a matter of minutes. I'd prefer someone who can. You may not; that's fine.
>My neighbors have keys....
No one else has the authority the president does (and no, he can't give it away unless he declares himself unable to perform his duties.) In the example I gave, no one else has your keys. What do you do then?
>You are talking about something you know nothing about.
And based on what you have posted so far you know even less. We both still vote. Choose wisely.
Quote1. There was nothing Bush could have done at that time. The National defense system works without the President. He guides it, but he does not operate it.
2. Even if he was in the White House when it happened (Which if he was in the White House he would have been doing a quick exit stage left) There was really nothing he could have done at that time without more information.
Your number 2 conflicts 1. What he should have done, was immediately make an effort to get more information. Would I be screaming about him upsetting some kids? No, that's ridiculous.
And I'm not grasping at anything. I was giving examples of what he could have done if possible. They might not have been possible, but the fact of the matter is, he sat there, and did nothing. Not one thing, not a question to anyone, not anything. Did you even watch the video?
crzjp20 0
QuoteHe does have the football. 24/7/365.
well if you want to be technical with it, he doesnt have the football. An airforce officer has control of the football at all times. At no time is it in the control of the preseident itself. Even when he orders a strike.... god forbid... he doesnt turn the key.
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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.
Jimbo 0
To everyone who's caught up in this 5 minutes thing, come on! In the grand scheme of things, what's the problem with sitting for 5 minutes, taking in the moment (dealing with the shock). Put yourself in the President's shoes - what would YOU have done in 5 minutes? What was lost in the 5 minutes that he sat there?
This isn't a Republican thing, it isn't a Democrat thing, it's a human thing.
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Jim
This isn't a Republican thing, it isn't a Democrat thing, it's a human thing.
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Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
Al Gore polarized the country when he tried to steal the election.
never pull low......unless you are