Sewing a patch on a seam.

[jdathome 0]

When sewing a patch that is close to a seam, I learned from the beginning the patch will be stronger if it is incorporated into that seam. When discussing a pending repair with a fellow rigger, he was telling me you need to be a Master Rigger to sew on a seam. Is there any wisdom to that statement? We are talking about a main canopy hear.

Also, what should I charge for sewing patches? One patch I just did for our club was on the top skin and only covering a 2” by 3” area. But it still takes time, right? The next patch I’m doing is also on the top skin and about 3” by 10”, sewn into a seam where a non-load bearing rib is attached.

Thanks for the input!

Blues….

Marriage is like a deck of cards. You start with two harts and a diamond only to discover you wish you had a club and a spade!

[theonlyski 8]

Quote

When sewing a patch that is close to a seam, I learned from the beginning the patch will be stronger if it is incorporated into that seam. When discussing a pending repair with a fellow rigger, he was telling me you need to be a Master Rigger to sew on a seam. Is there any wisdom to that statement? We are talking about a main canopy hear.

Also, what should I charge for sewing patches? One patch I just did for our club was on the top skin and only covering a 2” by 3” area. But it still takes time, right? The next patch I’m doing is also on the top skin and about 3” by 10”, sewn into a seam where a non-load bearing rib is attached.

Thanks for the input!

Blues….

It all comes down to what a minor/major repair is. PD (reserve manual mind you) states:

Quote

Any hole or tear up to 10 inches (25.4cm) in length may be repaired by a senior rigger as long as the
closest area of the completed repair is at least 1 inch (2.54 cm) from the nearest seam and at least 5
inches (12,7cm) from the nearest tape or line attachment. These are minor repairs.

That classifies a seam repair as being major. But, since you're not required to keep documentation on main repairs...

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[masterrigger1 2]

Patches that incorporate a seam are considered major repairs. The required repairman is a master rigger or someone under the supervision of one.

BS,
MEL

edited for lack of brain power today!

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

Hi Jeff,

First, I am a strong believer that the FAA should stay the H*** out of any regulation of non-certificated equipment, and a main parachute is a non-certificated item.

Quote

he was telling me you need to be a Master Rigger to sew on a seam.

OK, you're a Senior Rigger and the regs say you cannot do this repair. Do you log every repair that you ever do to a piece of non-certificated equipment?

To me ( and this is ONLY me ), if you can do it properly then do it. Just make sure no one sees you and do not log it in your riggers logbook.

Any other questions that you can get folks on here arguing about?

JerryBaumchen

PS) I spent 30 yrs as a federal employee & the FAA is, without question, the dumbest group of folks that I have ever had to deal with. Just a personal observation.

[mark 107]

The reference most frequently cited by the FAA, Poynter Vol 1 7.14.1 (repeated in Poynter Vol 2 7.15), is ambiguous. It says patches on main canopies may be made by Senior Riggers, but does not differentiate between basic patches and patches that require opening a seam. The illustrated example shows an opened seam.

I don't see anywhere that it says main canopy patches involving seams must be done by Master Riggers.

Ambiguity gets resolved to the most generous interpretation.

I'd say if you have the skill, equipment, and materials, you'd be okay doing the repair.

Mark

[jimjumper 25]

Regardless of whether itis legal or not, sewing a patch involving a seam that will be truly airworthy requires sewing skills and equipment that are beyond most senior riggers. Rags Raghanti does a wonderful demo at every PIA convention on just this subject. Even some of the manufactuers call him in to do major repairs when it's beyond their abilities. It's usually better (and cheaper!) to let the builder and designer do these kind of repairs.

[RiggerLee 63]

I'd have to say that your riggers need more sewing practice. The minimum requirments to pass the sewing portion of the practical test are a joke but around here the rigging standerds are some what higher then that. Even the senior riggers would have no problem with such a repair. Should it be our asperation that no one excead the minimum level of compitency? As an example I'm just a lowly senior rigger and I've built containers and I've built canopies and I've repaired canopies were whole cells were missing. And my skills and knowlage are not signifagently above the adverage for the senior riggers in the area.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[riggerrob 643]

Okay Lee,

We concede that riggers in the Great North West are significantly better than riggers on the rest of the planet.

Two issues are being debated here.
The first issue involves barracks lawyers debating the finer points of vague regulations, about repairing main canopies.

The second issue is how well FAA Senior Riggers should be trained.
I believe that Senior Rigger candidates should be trained to meet the minimum standard - on FAA tests.
Let's be practical ... because less than half of Senior Riggers touch a sewing machine after they earn a rating.
Curious Senior Riggers should then work under the supervision of a Master Rigger, sewing dozens of simple patches, then coaching on progressively more complex patches.
The challenge - to loft owners - is to make it worth the time of the Master Rigger to mentor junior riggers.

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

The minimum requirments to pass the sewing portion of the practical test are a joke but around here the rigging standerds are some what higher then that. Even the senior riggers would have no problem with such a repair.

Lee,
It is not whay the rigger can do, it is what he/she is certified to do.

As per the PTS, we only test a senior rigger for a patch without seams. So that is all that the rigger is allowed to do unless supervised, or they upgrade their certificate to a Master rating.

Just for clarity, a master rigger candiate is tested with several repair jobs wih seams included.


Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

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And my skills and knowlage are not signifagently above the adverage for the senior riggers in the area.

Lee:

Your modesty is admirable. However, it is misplaced. Your knowledge is remarkable and your work beautiful. In my opinon of me and many of my friends... You are in an entirely different league than most senior riggers!

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[koppel 5]

The fella that trained me had me doing end cell top skin replacements long before I had my Master's. Cheap Labour perhaps

Minimums and standards are there to ensure a 'basic' standard. Of course this should be exceeded whenever possible but you need an idea of where people are at or off they go and let confidence and ego take over where humility and ability should be ruling.

Here is one for the barrack lawyers though....

I firmly believe that the main risers are a part of the H/C therefore should be treated as a TSO'd component. Yet they tend to be considered as part of the main. Whats your take?

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[mark 107]

Quote

As per the PTS, we only test a senior rigger for a patch without seams. So that is all that the rigger is allowed to do unless supervised, or they upgrade their certificate to a Master rating.

The PTS does not distinguish between senior and master rigger tasks, except for Area 7, Alterations. Thus per the PTS, all the tasks in Areas 1 through 6 are possible senior rigger tasks.

That is a problem with the current PTS, and one I hope will be clarified with the next edition.

Mark

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

The PTS does not distinguish between senior and master rigger tasks, except for Area 7, Alterations. Thus per the PTS, all the tasks in Areas 1 through 6 are possible senior rigger tasks.

That is a problem with the current PTS, and one I hope will be clarified with the next edition.

Mark

Sure it does...

Look at the works "has knowledge of...." versus "Demonstrates" that is in each area of operation.


The senior rigger only has to have knowledge of a seam construction and a master rigger has to demonstrate the ability.

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[mark 107]

Quote

Quote

The PTS does not distinguish between senior and master rigger tasks, except for Area 7, Alterations. Thus per the PTS, all the tasks in Areas 1 through 6 are possible senior rigger tasks.

That is a problem with the current PTS, and one I hope will be clarified with the next edition.

Mark

Sure it does...

Look at the works "has knowledge of...." versus "Demonstrates" that is in each area of operation.


The senior rigger only has to have knowledge of a seam construction and a master rigger has to demonstrate the ability.

BS,
MEL

Task VI-N: RAM-AIR CANOPY PATCH REPAIR ADJACENT TO A SEAM

REFERENCE: PPM Vol. II.

Objective. To determine that the applicant demonstrates
fabrication of a patch on a ram-air canopy in an area that requires
the opening of a seam to accept the patch material. The applicant:

1. indicates the personnel certification requirements for this
repair to both a certificated and non-certificated canopy.
2. selects materials for the repair (fabric and thread).
3. selects sewing machine.
4. selects other required tools.
5. lays out canopy and removes stitching.
6. lays out patch and pins.
7. sews patch and seam.
8. inspects work.

There is no differentiation between senior and master rigger. We are required to test the task in its entirety, so if we select this task for a senior rigger, he or she will perform step #7.

This FAA publication implies that there are different certification requirements for patching mains and reserves. These different certification requirements are also shown in Poynter, which is the standard FAA reference.

Mark

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Task VI-N: RAM-AIR CANOPY PATCH REPAIR ADJACENT TO A SEAM

REFERENCE: PPM Vol. II.

Objective. To determine that the applicant demonstrates
fabrication of a patch on a ram-air canopy in an area that requires
the opening of a seam to accept the patch material. The applicant:

1. indicates the personnel certification requirements for this
repair to both a certificated and non-certificated canopy.
2. selects materials for the repair (fabric and thread).
3. selects sewing machine.
4. selects other required tools.
5. lays out canopy and removes stitching.
6. lays out patch and pins.
7. sews patch and seam.
8. inspects work.

There is no differentiation between senior and master rigger. We are required to test the task in its entirety, so if we select this task for a senior rigger, he or she will perform step #7.

This FAA publication implies that there are different certification requirements for patching mains and reserves. These different certification requirements are also shown in Poynter, which is the standard FAA reference.

Mark

Mark,
from page 3 of the PTS........

The applicant should be prepared tp demonstarte ability in all TASKs included in the AREAS OF OPERATION appropriate to the ratings and/or rating(s) sought.

In other words, the DPRE must select the right task from the PTS for the rating sought.

The task that you posted is atask for a Master's certificate.....

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[mark 107]

Quote

The task that you posted is a task for a Master's certificate.....

Where does it say that?

Mark

edited for format

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

Hi koppel,

First, not trying to argue with you.

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I firmly believe that the main risers are a part of the H/C therefore should be treated as a TSO'd component. Yet they tend to be considered as part of the main.

You can believe anything you want but in reality, the FAA does not agree with you. Main risers are not a certificated component.

I do not speak for the FAA but you can look in the latest TSO standard. Heck, you can look in all three of the TSO standards that have been in effect beginning in 1949.

JerryBaumchen

PS) Here's one for some argument: What is 'airworthy' for a main parachute?

[riggerrob 643]

Main risers are a grey area.

Main risers are barely mentioned in earlier versions of TSO C-23B, since those TSOs were originally written about pilot emergency parachutes.

Then those annoying skydivers started cluttering the skies and TSOs had to be re-written to include main risers, cutaway systems, etc.
I forget whether it was TSO C23C or D that first included detailed performance standards for testing main canopy release systems, RSLs, etc.

On a practical note, it is silly for riggers to work to different standards - depending upon whether a harness was manufactured under TSO C23B or the latest standard - so every time I inspect & repack a reserve, I also take a quick look at the bottom few inches of the main risers and re-attach the main canopy to the harness, ensuring that the lines are straight.