LouDiamond 1 #51 March 15, 2004 QuoteYou know as well as I do that Denton was being disrespectful of millions of people's religions with that statement. You don't care because you agree with him and he wasn't being disrespectful of yours. On the contrary. I am agreeing with his over all message not because it was respectful/disrespectful to my religion or anyone elses. You're take things out of context and applying them to fit your agenda. Would you agree with Mr. Denton Had Mr. Denton mentioned every religion when he used the term God (to include multiple gods as well) in the article or are you simply arguing because of political differences? My guess is that you are letting political motivation drive your responses."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #52 March 15, 2004 Quotef you want to talk about Zeus and Odin, keep it independent of US Government activities. It's a different chain of command. Again, I believe there should be a seperation of church and state. However, the founding fathers and the basis for which the system we currently live by is based on a trust in God( For reference see the backside of US paper currency and the front side of coins). To think it can be easily removed or eliminated from our form of government would require everything we currently know and live by to be scrapped."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #53 March 15, 2004 QuoteThanks for reminding me. For a moment, I thought it was this.......... ROFL. I think we now have the most repetitive pic ever in the history of the site, lol. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,089 #54 March 15, 2004 > maybe you don't feel as a nation, we need some moral and ethical > guidelines to help society evolve. I think we definitely do, but I also think they should not come from our government. We started this country partly because we wanted to be free of a government that was dictating what we could and couldn't believe. We do need better moral and ethical guidance in this country, but I think that guidance should come from our churches, parents and spiritual and moral leaders. >For some 50 years, our nation's opinion-makers, our courts and, > gradually, our politicians have been abandoning our historical effort > to be "one nation under God" in favor of becoming "one nation > without God," with glaringly unfavorable results. Huh? 50 years ago the Pledge of Allegiance did not contain the words "under god." They were added later by people who wanted to distinguish the US from the godless commies. So in that way we have been getting more, not less, reminders of religion from our government over the past 50 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #55 March 15, 2004 QuoteHuh? 50 years ago the Pledge of Allegiance did not contain the words "under god." They were added later by people who wanted to distinguish the US from the godless commies "Under God" was added in 1954, so 50 years ago the Pledge of Allegiance did contain the words.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #56 March 15, 2004 Well, technically . . . The words were officially added on Flag Day, June 14, 1954, so while it's damn close to 50 years, still not quite. source Interestingly, the source seems to have some small confusion over the exact date (perhaps a typo?) In one place it's listed as June 14 and in another as June 15. I can ONLY imagine a change such as this being signed into law on Flag Day, so I assume the June 15 date is the typo. That and other sources list the date as June 14 as well.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #57 March 15, 2004 QuoteQuotef you want to talk about Zeus and Odin, keep it independent of US Government activities. It's a different chain of command. Again, I believe there should be a seperation of church and state. However, the founding fathers and the basis for which the system we currently live by is based on a trust in God( For reference see the backside of US paper currency and the front side of coins). To think it can be easily removed or eliminated from our form of government would require everything we currently know and live by to be scrapped. Not quite, it just requires looking at a few things in a different light. There's a big difference between what you know and what you believe; belief is independent of reality, but involves emotional investment on the part of the believer. Belief is by its very nature a disease of denial. If we stick with reality in official matters. we will be better off. "In God we trust?" What you mean "we," paleface? Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #58 March 15, 2004 Quotebecause of stupid little differences like Jesus, Buddha, or Allah, innocent people are killed every day. I think you should leave Buddha out of it. No one has ever killed in his name, and he is not, and never claimed to be a God of any kind. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #59 March 15, 2004 QuoteQuotebecause of stupid little differences like Jesus, Buddha, or Allah, innocent people are killed every day. I think you should leave Buddha out of it. No one has ever killed in his name, and he is not, and never claimed to be a God of any kind. t You're right. I was just trying to think of other deities, and I never considered that. My apologies. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #60 March 15, 2004 Cool. No worries! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #61 March 15, 2004 QuoteWell, technically . . . The words were officially added on Flag Day, June 14, 1954, so while it's damn close to 50 years, still not quite. source Interestingly, the source seems to have some small confusion over the exact date (perhaps a typo?) In one place it's listed as June 14 and in another as June 15. I can ONLY imagine a change such as this being signed into law on Flag Day, so I assume the June 15 date is the typo. That and other sources list the date as June 14 as well. Don't confuse them with facts, Paul.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #62 March 15, 2004 QuoteAnd which particular Hindu God would be the almighty one? There are lots of Hindus in the USA and on the planet, and they have many gods. Sorry, it is unacceptable as a political statement. You only feel that way cause its Anti Kerry. If it were Anti Bush you would have posted it. And this is a thread about Kerry and his lies...Not Bush/Thacker or anyone else.... Its a thread about how BS Kerry's record is... but a nice red herring."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #63 March 15, 2004 Quotebut I think that guidance should come from our churches, parents and spiritual and moral leaders. I agree 100% and my undererstanding of Mr.Denton's article was just that. I didn't see a mention anywhere that it should be an undertaking of the government nor would I want that."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #64 March 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteAnd which particular Hindu God would be the almighty one? There are lots of Hindus in the USA and on the planet, and they have many gods. Sorry, it is unacceptable as a political statement. You only feel that way cause its Anti Kerry. If it were Anti Bush you would have posted it. And this is a thread about Kerry and his lies...Not Bush/Thacker or anyone else.... Its a thread about how BS Kerry's record is... but a nice red herring. I am on record (check the archives) as consistently opposed to bringing God into politics, regardless of who does it. I haven't seen any actual evidence that Kerry's record is BS, just a lot of innuendo. Not like GWB's "untruths" which we all heard televised from Capitol Hill.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #65 March 15, 2004 QuoteI am on record (check the archives) as consistently opposed to bringing God into politics, regardless of who does it. Like it or not this Nation was founded on religion....It's main principals are based on religion. Lieberman didn't have a chance since he was Jewish. Politics and religion are very connected. The cool thing is we don't use one to step on another. But I do like how since you lefties can't defend against that letter...You instead take one sentance out of it and try to discredit the whole thing. Really bad form."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #66 March 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote... GHWBush, who was indecisive about Gulf War I, So how was GHWBush indecisive exactly? Beats me - I think he didn't want to deploy troops to Kuwait. The quote comes from Reagan's speech when he presented the Medal of Freedom to Maggie. That explains absolutely nothing. The only "Maggie" that I can find that received this medal since 1993 is Margaret Murie in 1998. Mea Culpa, it was GHWB himself that said it. But you didn't try very hard to find it, did you? www.medaloffreedom.com/MargaretThatcher.htm QuoteAnd she listened to my explanation, agreed with the decision, but then added these words of caution -- words that guided me through the Gulf crisis, words I'll never forget as long as I'm alive. ``Remember, George,'' she said, ``this is no time to go wobbly.'' *Laughter* You have a penchant for taking things out of context. As for my looking for it, I was using the list which is on that site, but it's only good for 11 years. What was out of context? You asked for evidence of the Medal of Freedom award and I gave you one. Here's a link about the reason for the "wobbly" message, in Bush's own words. www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/2001/Autumn/pdfs/art7-au1.pdf Other sources suggest it was deeper than that, that GHWB was wavering on the deployment of troops to the Gulf. For example: www.sm.org/exegesis/0109-thatcher.html... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #67 March 15, 2004 QuoteIf we stick with reality in official matters. we will be better off. While I'm sure some would consider this dry humor the fact of the matter is that a lot of what has and does happen in government could be argued to not be based in reality. Especialy if you are one who believes that we create our own realities. Now if you are one who doesn't feel there is a God then from where ever you derive your idea of right/wrong, ethical and moral guidelines is where Mr. Denton was saying as a nation we need to focus on. Coincidentialy, many of the people on the planet derive those values from their religion. Again, I don't see anywhere in the article where the intent was to make it the governments responsibility. QuoteWhat you mean "we," paleface? As a Native American I could say the same thing all day but I do believe it is "we the people" that makes this country a great nation."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #68 March 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteIf we stick with reality in official matters. we will be better off. While I'm sure some would consider this dry humor If you think I'm kidding, you're wrong. I'm serious as a heart attack. Quote Now if you are one who doesn't feel there is a God then from where ever you derive your idea of right/wrong, ethical and moral guidelines... Precisely the kind of limited conceptual capacity to which I referred. If I have to explain, you couldn't comprehend. Quote QuoteWhat you mean "we," paleface? As a Native American I could say the same thing all day but I do believe it is "we the people" that makes this country a great nation. I thought EVERYBODY knew the joke to which that punch line refers. Oh well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #69 March 15, 2004 Exactly! Even if another person does not agree with your views, well argued and educated points are hard to rebuttleTunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #70 March 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote... GHWBush, who was indecisive about Gulf War I, So how was GHWBush indecisive exactly? Beats me - I think he didn't want to deploy troops to Kuwait. The quote comes from Reagan's speech when he presented the Medal of Freedom to Maggie. That explains absolutely nothing. The only "Maggie" that I can find that received this medal since 1993 is Margaret Murie in 1998. Mea Culpa, it was GHWB himself that said it. But you didn't try very hard to find it, did you? www.medaloffreedom.com/MargaretThatcher.htm QuoteAnd she listened to my explanation, agreed with the decision, but then added these words of caution -- words that guided me through the Gulf crisis, words I'll never forget as long as I'm alive. ``Remember, George,'' she said, ``this is no time to go wobbly.'' *Laughter* You have a penchant for taking things out of context. As for my looking for it, I was using the list which is on that site, but it's only good for 11 years. What was out of context? You asked for evidence of the Medal of Freedom award and I gave you one. Here's a link about the reason for the "wobbly" message, in Bush's own words. www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/2001/Autumn/pdfs/art7-au1.pdf Other sources suggest it was deeper than that, that GHWB was wavering on the deployment of troops to the Gulf. For example: www.sm.org/exegesis/0109-thatcher.html Re: the first "wobbly" message is in regards to interception of one ship during the naval "isolation" of Iraq. The maritime interception force let one ship through without inspection because of certain intel. GHWBush called Thatcher personally. Out of context totally. The second example is barely worth reading. It's third hand knowledge.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #71 March 15, 2004 Sorry Paul, I remembered the year it happened I just couldn't remember the day. Thats right, some of us were alive when it happened. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #72 March 15, 2004 Quote Re: the first "wobbly" message is in regards to interception of one ship during the naval "isolation" of Iraq. The maritime interception force let one ship through without inspection because of certain intel. GHWBush called Thatcher personally. Out of context totally. The second example is barely worth reading. It's third hand knowledge. www.worldhistory.com/wiki/M/Margaret-Thatcher.htm "One of her final acts in office was to pressure US President George H. W. Bush to deploy troops to the Middle East to drive Saddam Hussein's army out of Kuwait. Bush was somewhat aprehensive about the plan, but Thatcher famously told him that this was no time to "go wobbly!" www.fortune.com/fortune/articles/0,15114,409702,00.html "Bush was buffeted by conflicting views about what to do. Hawks in his administration, who included a fellow named Cheney, wanted an aggressive military response. Doves, led by a guy named Powell, thought economic sanctions would eventually be enough to drive Saddam from the small, oil-rich kingdom. Thatcher would hear none of that. In the immortal words that would forever solidify her Iron Lady reputation, she went to Aspen and told Bush simply, "This is no time to go wobbly, George.'' www.brothersjudd.com/blog/archives/010582.html "I was still prime minister last summer, of course," she recalled wistfully, "and was attending a conference in Aspen, Colorado, with president Bush. When I heard about the invasion of Kuwait I went to see him in his suite. He asked me, 'Now, Margaret, what's your view?' I told him I had experienced aggression in the Falklands, so I had no doubt how to deal with an aggressor. "Aggressors had to be stopped, thrown out, destroyed. And when he began to chew this over, I said, 'Look George, this is no time to be wobbly. No half-measures. Liberate Kuwait. Go into Iraq. Destroy Saddam Hussein and his National Guard utterly. Britain will be by your side.'" www.insightmag.com/main.cfm?include=detail&storyid=262283 " There was a famous moment shortly after Saddam invaded Kuwait on Aug. 2, 1990, when President George H.W. Bush appeared to hesitate. His closest advisers — including then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell and then national security adviser Scowcroft — urged him to be cautious. But he listened when Margaret Thatcher, still in the prime of power, told him: "Don't go wobbly on me, George." How many would you like?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #73 March 15, 2004 Well, the words have been in effect all of -my- life, so I had to look it up. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,089 #74 March 15, 2004 >"Under God" was added in 1954, so 50 years ago the Pledge of >Allegiance did contain the words. It happened June 22, 1954. 50 years ago the pledge did not contain those words; 50 years ago was March 15, 1954. Which isn't really the point; the point is that we haven't gotten more godless over the past 50 years. In fact we _added_ a reference to god less than 50 years ago to the pledge of allegiance. If there is any link between god-references and problems we've been having with morality, then the addition of that phrase hurt, not helped, our national morality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #75 March 15, 2004 You're providing plenty of information which notes that Thatcher said to GHWBush, "...don't go wobbly...". It does not note, in any way, where Bush was not acting in a prudent, or coherent manner. Just because his advisors were urging caution, doesn't mean wobbly. Remember, it was Bush who accepted Saudi terms, carte blanche, to allow our troops to stage there. It was, in the end, a US led effort. It is clear, by March 1991, that we had accomplished our mission.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
