The beginning of all the Constitutions . . .

[pajarito 0]

Quote

So would you vote for a politician that shared all your political views and was willing to stand and fight for them but didn't believe in God?

Personally, no.

Do you think I'm arrogant for not believing in god or is it just a gov't thing?

Personally, yes, but I don't hold that against you. You're allowed to believe whatever you wish.

Do you think its impossible for some one to have good morals and a sense of what is and is not right but not believe in god?

No.

Edit: How do you think belief in or respect for god would reflect itself in gov't policy?

Too broad a question.

[kallend 2,147]

Quote

from Ron:

Quote

This land was founded on religion.

Maybe you've not heard of the treaty of tripoli? It contains this jewel:

"the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

Considering that this treaty was written and signed by the same guys behind the constitution, I think their thoughts and intentions were pretty clear.

Been there before.

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=172698#172698

Some stuff just comes up again and again.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 4]

And that is in conflict with my previous statements . . . how?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jdhill 0]

Quote

YES! it always gets me when people seem to think that the constitution(s) were written with some kind of sacred foresight and that they will always be right no matter how different things are.

No, the Constitution will not always be right... but there is a process for updating it, through Amendments... a process that has only been sucessful 27 times in the nation's history.

J

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

a process that has only been sucessful 27 times in the nation's history.

25 actual successes - but I'm not going there

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 4]

Quote

No, the Constitution will not always be right... but there is a process for updating it, through Amendments... a process that has only been sucessful 27 times in the nation's history.

25 if you only count the things that were actually required.

Since the 21st repealed the 18th . . .

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jdhill 0]

I don't see that it is... just throwing it out there so folks can see the full effect of the 10th amendment... not just half of it...

It is quite possibly the most ignored amendment there is... as is evidenced by the size of the federal government.

[Ron 10]

Quote

Maybe you've not heard of the treaty of tripoli?

Huh, A TREATY to ensure peace, or the Mayflower Compact, Declaration of Independance, and the first Constitution (Articles of Confederation).

I'll go with the MC, D of I, and the First Constitiution. Over a trading treaty.

BTW the "Receipt" from Tripoli:

Quote

Praise be to God &c-

The present writing done by our hand and delivered to the American Captain OBrien makes known that he has delivered to us forty thousand Spanish dollars,-thirteen watches of gold, silver & pinsbach,-five rings, of which three of diamonds, one of saphire and one with a watch in it, One hundred & forty piques of cloth, and four caftans of brocade,-and these on account of the peace concluded with the Americans.

Given at Tripoli in Barbary the 20th day of Jumad 1211, corresponding with the 21st day of Novr 1796-

(Signed) JUSSUF BASHAW-Bey whom God Exalt

Funny huh?


Oh yeah...

Quote

Considering that this treaty was written and signed by the same guys behind the constitution, I think their thoughts and intentions were pretty clear.

It was only signed by David Humphreys. It was APROVED by the senate, and it was later signed by John Addams...So it was only signed by ONE guy that signed the constitution.

Quote

Now Know ye, that I David Humphreys Commissioner Plenipotentiary aforesaid, do approve and conclude the said Treaty, and every article and clause therein contained, reserving the same nevertheless for the final Ratification of the President of the United States of America, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate of the said United States.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jdhill 0]

Quote

25 if you only count the things that were actually required.

Since the 21st repealed the 18th . . .

But the 18th was passed sucessfully, albeit mistakenly... and took over 10 years to correct the error.

[kallend 2,147]

Quote

Yeah but the very beginings of this country were based on religion.

....


This land was founded on religion.

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." (Thomas Jefferson, as President, in a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 369)

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pajarito 0]

Beutifully taken out of context....again....congratulations.

[jakee 1,594]

Quote

Do you think its impossible for some one to have good morals and a sense of what is and is not right but not believe in god?

No.

So if you agree that there is no set relation between religious belief and the ability to do the right thing then why would you not vote for an atheist/ non believer. It just seems petty to me.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Ron 10]

Quote

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." (Thomas Jefferson, as President, in a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 369)

John...Im not saying that it has been seperated...Or atleast tried.

Im saying IT WAS founded on religion. And it was..

The Mayflower Compact proves that...The Declaration of Independance proves that, the Articles of Confederation show that.

Can you atleast admit it WAS FOUNDED with religion. I will admit that we have tried to run it without...

But can you atleast admit it WAS FOUNDED based on religion?

Hell I have shown you proof.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jakee 1,594]

Founded by religious people yes. it's only natural that they would mention god in their documents in that day and age. However they seem to have made every effort to emphasise that religion should have no bearing on the rule of law.
Its also pretty obvious that the laws of the US are not based on Christian law (With the exception of stuff like murder, theft and rape but hey, thats a bit of a no brainer anyway)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,147]

Quote

Quote

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." (Thomas Jefferson, as President, in a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 369)

John...Im not saying that it has been seperated...Or atleast tried.

Im saying IT WAS founded on religion. And it was..

The Mayflower Compact proves that...The Declaration of Independance proves that, the Articles of Confederation show that.

Can you atleast admit it WAS FOUNDED with religion. I will admit that we have tried to run it without...

But can you atleast admit it WAS FOUNDED based on religion?

Hell I have shown you proof.

The USA was not founded by the Mayflower compact. The Constitution makes no reference to God.

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith"(Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776)

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Tink1717 2]

Quote

Do you think its impossible for some one to have good morals and a sense of what is and is not right but not believe in god?

No.

So then, please explain why the most horrific of human barbarism is committed by the religious. Also, explain why belief in mythology is a prerequisite for moral behavior. Do you really need the threat of everlasting punishment to cause you to behave in a moral fashion? And while you're at it, please explain why you think arming the government with the power and authority of a diety is a good idea.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[kallend 2,147]

Quote

Quote

Maybe you've not heard of the treaty of tripoli?

Huh, A TREATY to ensure peace, or the Mayflower Compact, Declaration of Independance, and the first Constitution (Articles of Confederation).

I'll go with the MC, D of I, and the First Constitiution. Over a trading treaty.

BTW the "Receipt" from Tripoli:

Quote

Praise be to God &c-

The present writing done by our hand and delivered to the American Captain OBrien makes known that he has delivered to us forty thousand Spanish dollars,-thirteen watches of gold, silver & pinsbach,-five rings, of which three of diamonds, one of saphire and one with a watch in it, One hundred & forty piques of cloth, and four caftans of brocade,-and these on account of the peace concluded with the Americans.

Given at Tripoli in Barbary the 20th day of Jumad 1211, corresponding with the 21st day of Novr 1796-

(Signed) JUSSUF BASHAW-Bey whom God Exalt

Funny huh?


Oh yeah...

Quote

Considering that this treaty was written and signed by the same guys behind the constitution, I think their thoughts and intentions were pretty clear.

It was only signed by David Humphreys. It was APROVED by the senate, and it was later signed by John Addams...So it was only signed by ONE guy that signed the constitution.

Quote

Now Know ye, that I David Humphreys Commissioner Plenipotentiary aforesaid, do approve and conclude the said Treaty, and every article and clause therein contained, reserving the same nevertheless for the final Ratification of the President of the United States of America, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate of the said United States.

President Adams signed the treaty and proclaimed it to the nation on 10 June 1797 with the words "Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all other citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfill the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gary350 0]

Founded on religion? Maybe in the sick, twisted hopes and dreams of some. But thankfully NOT for the ones who really mattered. Try reading some direct quotes from a few of the "Founding Fathers" themselves (with references):

John Adams:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught


"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:545

"...our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opnions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry"--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:545

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises."--Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Samuel Miller, 1808

"I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another."--Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 10:78

"I know it will give great offense to the clergy, but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace no forgiveness from them."--Thomas Jefferson to Levi Lincoln, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 10:305

"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination."--Thomas Jefferson, Elementary school Act, 1817, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 10:305

"(When) the (Virginia) bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason & right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that it's protections of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantel of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohametan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."--Thomas Jefferson, from his autobiography, 1821, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1:67


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." --Thomas Jefferson, _Six_Historic_Americans_ by John E. Remsberg

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology."--Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, _Six_Historic_Americans_ by John E. Remsberg

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity [of opinion]. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_the_State_of_Virginia_(1781-85), _Oxford_Dictionary_of_Quotations_

"The proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion is depriving him injuriously of those priviledges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natual right."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ." -- Thomas Jefferson

"I contemplate with soveriegn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof', thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT. _The_Complete_ Jefferson_ by Saul K. Padover, pp 518-519

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt in 1813, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 14:21

"All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution."--Thomas Jefferson, 1776

James Madison

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James Madison, _A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison,_A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project."--James Madison, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822

"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will best be guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others."--James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN pp 237-238

"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the TOTAL SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE."--James Madison

Thomas Paine

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." -- Thomas Paine

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind." -- Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason_

"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."--Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."--Thomas Paine, _Excerpts_from_The_Age_of_Reason:_Selected_Writings_of_Thomas_ Paine_, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."--Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason

"The adulterous connection between church and state."--Thomas Paine, from _The_Age_of_Reason_

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law."--Thomas Paine, _The_Rights_of_Man_, 1791, ed P.S. Foner, 1945

"Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the Christian Religion. It is free from all those invented and torturing articles that shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which the Christian religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there it rests."--Thomas Paine, _Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christian_Religion_

"As priestcraft was always the enemy of knowledge, because priestcraft supports itself by keeping people in delusion and ignorance, it was consistent with its policy to make the acquisition of knowledge a real sin."--Thomas Paine, _Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christian_Religion_

"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."--Thomas Paine, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, James A. Haught

misc.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."--First Amendment to the U.S.A. Constitution

"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

John...Im not saying that it has been seperated...Or atleast tried.

Im saying IT WAS founded on religion. And it was..

The Mayflower Compact proves that...The Declaration of Independance proves that, the Articles of Confederation show that.

Can you atleast admit it WAS FOUNDED with religion. I will admit that we have tried to run it without...

But can you atleast admit it WAS FOUNDED based on religion?

Hell I have shown you proof.

May I answer - Well, Too bad!
Ron all you prove is that this Country and it's founding were at one time based on Christianity, not just religion. The defining point is that we recognised early on that there is more than one idea of what religion should be, and forcing one's beliefs were what we were running from to begin with. So there!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Tink1717 2]

Your opinion is wrong. The states are not free to acknowledge, advance, advocate or endorse any religion or god. The SCOTUS has repeatedly supported the separation of church and state as mandated by the first amendment. The landmark case that established the boundary that the sate may not cross was Lemon v. Kurtzman, 1971. In it, the court stated the boundaries as follows: "First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principle or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion (citation omitted); finally, the statute must not foster "an excessive government entanglement with religion."

So, like it or not, the state is not allowed to act as a church, despite the desire of those politicians who have theocratic ambitions.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

Your opinion is wrong. The states are not free to acknowledge, advance, advocate or endorse any religion or god. The SCOTUS has repeatedly supported the separation of church and state as mandated by the first amendment. The landmark case that established the boundary that the sate may not cross was Lemon v. Kurtzman, 1971. In it, the court stated the boundaries as follows: "First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principle or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion (citation omitted); finally, the statute must not foster "an excessive government entanglement with religion."

So, like it or not, the state is not allowed to act as a church, despite the desire of those politicians who have theocratic ambitions.

So you are sayingthat each and EVERY state constitutin is wrong, and there for non binding?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Ron 10]

And all this you still miss the FACT that religion was the reason for the founding of the country.

And that it was started based on it.

Are you blind?

You can't read where it was written?

And for tehe record...Im not a Christain. But I can see how this country was founded on religion.

Don't be blind.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Tink1717 2]

Yes. Specifically, those parts that require an overt participation in religion. In Maryland, a part of the state constitution that requires acknowledgement of the christian religion as a prerequisite for holding public office was struck down in 1963. Subsequently, so were all other state constitutions that had the same requirement.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[Ron 10]

Quote

Ron all you prove is that this Country and it's founding were at one time based on Christianity, not just religion.

And thats all I every tried to point out.


I could not care to be honest, but you would have to be stupid or just blind to not see how it was founded on religion.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,114]

>Al-Qaeda

Exactly! And in the 16th century, people who did that were called christians. Times change; we should no more emulate the christians of the 16th century than we should emulate Al-Qaeda today, even if they brought that morality to the English colonies of America.