Shotgun 1 #1 March 24, 2004 So I just went around putting poison in all the gopher holes in my yard... I tried other means of diverting them, like putting cat poop in their holes, but they didn't get the hint... So in an effort to save our flowers and our vegetable garden that we have worked so hard for, I decided the only way was to kill the gophers (as well as the ants and snails and slugs that I regularly kill). So this got me thinking... (and sort of a question for all of those who are vegetarians because of the animal rights issue)... How many animals are killed or at least used for the purpose of growing fruits and vegetables? Besides just the pests like rabbits and gophers that are pretty hard to control without killing them... What about the fertilizers that are used? Steer manure is one of the best fertilizers, and I would imagine it is often obtained from slaughterhouses or other such places... And even the regular Nitrogen/Phosphorus/Potassium fertilizers such as Miracle Gro often contain bone meal or fish emulsion... Anyhow, I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone to stop being a vegetarian... but if you're doing it for the purpose of protecting animals, then I think there is quite a bit to consider about where you are getting your food from. There must be farms that go out of their way to make sure no animal products are used and that no animal pests are killed, but I imagine these are few and far between, and I don't know how one would even go about finding out this kind of information(???). To my knowledge, it is not stated anywhere in the produce section of most grocery stores...(Or is it???) Just some food for thought... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #2 March 24, 2004 QuoteHow many animals are killed or at least used for the purpose of growing fruits and vegetables? Bees are a big one. Countless honeybees (tens of thousands per colony, several to dozens of colonies per location, unknown number of acres per location) are used for fertilizing fruit and nut trees. I thank a bee every time I eat an almond. Ooh, and bonus points, honeybees are small, furry animals! Woo! -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #3 March 24, 2004 I am not a vegetarian, but there are places and certain food marts you can get organic foods that have not used any animal by-products and so forth. since the early 90's when vegans hit the main stream this has been more redily available. certain shops like whole foods carry specifically non-animal cruelty/ no animal byproduct produce, and processed foods. some dont even use fertelizer at all.. whatever Ills tick to my steak and produce from kroger_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #4 March 24, 2004 Quotethere are places and certain food marts you can get organic foods that have not used any animal by-products and so forth But "organic" only means that there were no synthetic chemicals used. It doesn't mean that manure was not used as a fertilizer or that rabbits and gophers were not killed to protect the crops. (They could have been killed with traps instead of poison, and that would keep them within the "organic rule", I think.) PETA made a big stink a while back about Whole Foods using mousetraps in their stores. So that is one example of animals being killed to protect the food that vegetarians are buying. (BTW, I think that PETA is way over-the-top... just using that as an example.) I'm not a vegetarian either... but I do sometimes think about animal rights and what could be done to improve the situation (seems like an overwhelmingly complex issue!)... I'm just thinking out loud right now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #5 March 24, 2004 QuoteBees are a big one. Countless honeybees (tens of thousands per colony, several to dozens of colonies per location, unknown number of acres per location) are used for fertilizing fruit and nut trees. I thank a bee every time I eat an almond. Are they killed, or just released for pollination purposes? We just released about 1500 ladybugs in our yard to kill the aphids. It was pretty freaky - I had hundreds of ladybugs on each hand as I spread them around on the bushes. If they weren't such cute little bugs I would have been really grossed out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smiles 0 #6 March 24, 2004 QuoteHow many animals are killed or at least used for the purpose of growing fruits and vegetables? sorry off topic but for the purpose of consumer products-------------- --pig entrails, brains, bones, nerve tissue, and gore--are taken to a rendering plant called West Coast Reduction Ltd. in my city. The plant turns animal bones, guts, fish, blood, pig entrails, used restaurant grease into thousands of consumer products, like lipstick base, soaps, shampoos, and perfumes. These commodities that improve human appearance are shipped all over the world. SMiles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ACMESkydiver 0 #7 March 24, 2004 -Bees are the spawn of Satan, Frog. Albeit little Satans...~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SublimeBreeze 0 #8 March 24, 2004 Have you tried a have-a-heart trap? they work decently well. We caught 11 skunks, and 4-5 raccoons with those things let them go and didn't have any problems after that. There's always alternatives ya just gotta be open to them. Peace Sean Sean In Thailand Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #9 March 24, 2004 Quote How many animals are killed or at least used for the purpose of growing fruits and vegetables? reply] I don't know how many are killed but there is about to be one more dead once I find the mole that is tearing up my yard. I will be stalking it when I get home with my pitch fork. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #10 March 24, 2004 QuoteHave you tried a have-a-heart trap? they work decently well. We caught 11 skunks, and 4-5 raccoons with those things let them go and didn't have any problems after that. Thanks for the suggestion. I haven't tried that, but I'll look into it. I don't really know where I would let them go though, without simply making them someone else's problem. I sort of live in the desert, so if I let them out in the wild they probably wouldn't find much to eat and would either die anyway or move onto someone else's property where there is vegetation. But it sounds like it's at least worth checking out... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #11 March 24, 2004 Quotewithout simply making them someone else's problem it wont be the same as WB recipe, but you could do a roadkill stew...Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #12 March 24, 2004 QuoteAnyhow, I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone to stop being a vegetarian... but if you're doing it for the purpose of protecting animals, then I think there is quite a bit to consider about where you are getting your food from. Thus, the vegan diet, which proclaims to not use anything that comes from animals. No diary, honey, et al. My argument is that if cows ruled the world, they would definitely be exploiting humans in cruel and unusual ways. So I don't feel bad about it.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #13 March 24, 2004 QuoteThus, the vegan diet, which proclaims to not use anything that comes from animals. No diary, honey, et al. Right, but they're still eating fruits and vegetables and grains, so I'm wondering if (and how) they know if any animals were killed (pests such as gophers or rabbits) or any "natural" animal products (such as manure) used to take care of the crop... Just curious, I don't really have much of an opinion about whether it is right or wrong. I did give a lot of thought to killing the gophers though, before doing it (and lost quite a few plants while I was thinking about it)... but once I made the decision to poison them, then I felt pretty neutral about it. But it made me start thinking about what is involved in taking care of commercial food crops... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maxmadmax 8 #14 March 24, 2004 I use the snapper trap for the damned gophers.A pair of snapper tongs and snap snap , it's all over for Mr.Gopher. Better than chemicals. Safer for you! And a hell of a lot more fun! Don't go away mad....just go away! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #15 March 24, 2004 QuoteI use the snapper trap for the damned gophers.A pair of snapper tongs and snap snap , it's all over for Mr.Gopher. Better than chemicals. Safer for you! And a hell of a lot more fun! Any suggestions for my mole? It is going to drive me insane. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #16 March 24, 2004 [replyMy argument is that if cows ruled the world, they would definitely be exploiting humans in cruel and unusual ways. So I don't feel bad about it. Don't fool yourself, the second you turn your back, that cow is looking around for an ax to plant in your back. You can see it in their evil, evil, eyes. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #17 March 25, 2004 QuoteAny suggestions for my mole? It is going to drive me insane. Well, as of this morning I don't see any evidence of my gophers returning - no new holes and no dead plants. Though I don't know if one day is long enough to tell if it's working... I did see some mole pellets when I bought the gopher pellets (from Lowe's), so that might be worth a shot... if you're not opposed to killing them, of course... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #18 March 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteAny suggestions for my mole? It is going to drive me insane. Well, as of this morning I don't see any evidence of my gophers returning - no new holes and no dead plants. Though I don't know if one day is long enough to tell if it's working... I did see some mole pellets when I bought the gopher pellets (from Lowe's), so that might be worth a shot... if you're not opposed to killing them, of course... I've tried the pellets, and I think it just made is stronger. Last night we went up and down a few of its trails with the pitch fork. I don't know if that worked or not, I will see when I get home.Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #19 March 25, 2004 QuoteI've tried the pellets, and I think it just made is stronger. Oh, great! Does that mean my gopher is gonna come back twice as big!!!??? If that's the case, explosives are next on the agenda. (Yes, I am definitely turning into Carl from Caddyshack!) QuoteLicense to kill gophers by the government of the United Nations. Man, free to kill gophers at will. To kill, you must know your enemy, and in this case my enemy is a varmint. And a varmint will never quit - ever. They're like the Viet Cong - Varmint Cong. So you have to fall back on superior intelligence and superior firepower. And that's all she wrote. I would try quade's carbon monoxide suggestion, but I'm such an idiot that I would probably poison myself or the neighbor's dog or something... Oh well, good luck with the mole! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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smiles 0 #6 March 24, 2004 QuoteHow many animals are killed or at least used for the purpose of growing fruits and vegetables? sorry off topic but for the purpose of consumer products-------------- --pig entrails, brains, bones, nerve tissue, and gore--are taken to a rendering plant called West Coast Reduction Ltd. in my city. The plant turns animal bones, guts, fish, blood, pig entrails, used restaurant grease into thousands of consumer products, like lipstick base, soaps, shampoos, and perfumes. These commodities that improve human appearance are shipped all over the world. SMiles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #7 March 24, 2004 -Bees are the spawn of Satan, Frog. Albeit little Satans...~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SublimeBreeze 0 #8 March 24, 2004 Have you tried a have-a-heart trap? they work decently well. We caught 11 skunks, and 4-5 raccoons with those things let them go and didn't have any problems after that. There's always alternatives ya just gotta be open to them. Peace Sean Sean In Thailand Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #9 March 24, 2004 Quote How many animals are killed or at least used for the purpose of growing fruits and vegetables? reply] I don't know how many are killed but there is about to be one more dead once I find the mole that is tearing up my yard. I will be stalking it when I get home with my pitch fork. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #10 March 24, 2004 QuoteHave you tried a have-a-heart trap? they work decently well. We caught 11 skunks, and 4-5 raccoons with those things let them go and didn't have any problems after that. Thanks for the suggestion. I haven't tried that, but I'll look into it. I don't really know where I would let them go though, without simply making them someone else's problem. I sort of live in the desert, so if I let them out in the wild they probably wouldn't find much to eat and would either die anyway or move onto someone else's property where there is vegetation. But it sounds like it's at least worth checking out... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #11 March 24, 2004 Quotewithout simply making them someone else's problem it wont be the same as WB recipe, but you could do a roadkill stew...Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #12 March 24, 2004 QuoteAnyhow, I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone to stop being a vegetarian... but if you're doing it for the purpose of protecting animals, then I think there is quite a bit to consider about where you are getting your food from. Thus, the vegan diet, which proclaims to not use anything that comes from animals. No diary, honey, et al. My argument is that if cows ruled the world, they would definitely be exploiting humans in cruel and unusual ways. So I don't feel bad about it.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #13 March 24, 2004 QuoteThus, the vegan diet, which proclaims to not use anything that comes from animals. No diary, honey, et al. Right, but they're still eating fruits and vegetables and grains, so I'm wondering if (and how) they know if any animals were killed (pests such as gophers or rabbits) or any "natural" animal products (such as manure) used to take care of the crop... Just curious, I don't really have much of an opinion about whether it is right or wrong. I did give a lot of thought to killing the gophers though, before doing it (and lost quite a few plants while I was thinking about it)... but once I made the decision to poison them, then I felt pretty neutral about it. But it made me start thinking about what is involved in taking care of commercial food crops... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maxmadmax 8 #14 March 24, 2004 I use the snapper trap for the damned gophers.A pair of snapper tongs and snap snap , it's all over for Mr.Gopher. Better than chemicals. Safer for you! And a hell of a lot more fun! Don't go away mad....just go away! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #15 March 24, 2004 QuoteI use the snapper trap for the damned gophers.A pair of snapper tongs and snap snap , it's all over for Mr.Gopher. Better than chemicals. Safer for you! And a hell of a lot more fun! Any suggestions for my mole? It is going to drive me insane. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #16 March 24, 2004 [replyMy argument is that if cows ruled the world, they would definitely be exploiting humans in cruel and unusual ways. So I don't feel bad about it. Don't fool yourself, the second you turn your back, that cow is looking around for an ax to plant in your back. You can see it in their evil, evil, eyes. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #10 March 24, 2004 QuoteHave you tried a have-a-heart trap? they work decently well. We caught 11 skunks, and 4-5 raccoons with those things let them go and didn't have any problems after that. Thanks for the suggestion. I haven't tried that, but I'll look into it. I don't really know where I would let them go though, without simply making them someone else's problem. I sort of live in the desert, so if I let them out in the wild they probably wouldn't find much to eat and would either die anyway or move onto someone else's property where there is vegetation. But it sounds like it's at least worth checking out... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #11 March 24, 2004 Quotewithout simply making them someone else's problem it wont be the same as WB recipe, but you could do a roadkill stew...Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #12 March 24, 2004 QuoteAnyhow, I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone to stop being a vegetarian... but if you're doing it for the purpose of protecting animals, then I think there is quite a bit to consider about where you are getting your food from. Thus, the vegan diet, which proclaims to not use anything that comes from animals. No diary, honey, et al. My argument is that if cows ruled the world, they would definitely be exploiting humans in cruel and unusual ways. So I don't feel bad about it.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #13 March 24, 2004 QuoteThus, the vegan diet, which proclaims to not use anything that comes from animals. No diary, honey, et al. Right, but they're still eating fruits and vegetables and grains, so I'm wondering if (and how) they know if any animals were killed (pests such as gophers or rabbits) or any "natural" animal products (such as manure) used to take care of the crop... Just curious, I don't really have much of an opinion about whether it is right or wrong. I did give a lot of thought to killing the gophers though, before doing it (and lost quite a few plants while I was thinking about it)... but once I made the decision to poison them, then I felt pretty neutral about it. But it made me start thinking about what is involved in taking care of commercial food crops... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maxmadmax 8 #14 March 24, 2004 I use the snapper trap for the damned gophers.A pair of snapper tongs and snap snap , it's all over for Mr.Gopher. Better than chemicals. Safer for you! And a hell of a lot more fun! Don't go away mad....just go away! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #15 March 24, 2004 QuoteI use the snapper trap for the damned gophers.A pair of snapper tongs and snap snap , it's all over for Mr.Gopher. Better than chemicals. Safer for you! And a hell of a lot more fun! Any suggestions for my mole? It is going to drive me insane. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #16 March 24, 2004 [replyMy argument is that if cows ruled the world, they would definitely be exploiting humans in cruel and unusual ways. So I don't feel bad about it. Don't fool yourself, the second you turn your back, that cow is looking around for an ax to plant in your back. You can see it in their evil, evil, eyes. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #17 March 25, 2004 QuoteAny suggestions for my mole? It is going to drive me insane. Well, as of this morning I don't see any evidence of my gophers returning - no new holes and no dead plants. Though I don't know if one day is long enough to tell if it's working... I did see some mole pellets when I bought the gopher pellets (from Lowe's), so that might be worth a shot... if you're not opposed to killing them, of course... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #18 March 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteAny suggestions for my mole? It is going to drive me insane. Well, as of this morning I don't see any evidence of my gophers returning - no new holes and no dead plants. Though I don't know if one day is long enough to tell if it's working... I did see some mole pellets when I bought the gopher pellets (from Lowe's), so that might be worth a shot... if you're not opposed to killing them, of course... I've tried the pellets, and I think it just made is stronger. Last night we went up and down a few of its trails with the pitch fork. I don't know if that worked or not, I will see when I get home.Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #19 March 25, 2004 QuoteI've tried the pellets, and I think it just made is stronger. Oh, great! Does that mean my gopher is gonna come back twice as big!!!??? If that's the case, explosives are next on the agenda. (Yes, I am definitely turning into Carl from Caddyshack!) QuoteLicense to kill gophers by the government of the United Nations. Man, free to kill gophers at will. To kill, you must know your enemy, and in this case my enemy is a varmint. And a varmint will never quit - ever. They're like the Viet Cong - Varmint Cong. So you have to fall back on superior intelligence and superior firepower. And that's all she wrote. I would try quade's carbon monoxide suggestion, but I'm such an idiot that I would probably poison myself or the neighbor's dog or something... Oh well, good luck with the mole! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
