PhillyKev 0 #76 March 19, 2004 Quote And I do know that MY 32-year-old circumcised penis feels no shortage of pleasure. How do you know? What if it could be 10x more pleasurable? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #77 March 19, 2004 *** Quote There is alot of evidence to show that circumsicion carried out by medical staff in a sterile enviroment does have health benifits in later life. As it is a surgical procedure it does of course still carry a degree of risk, mainly infection but with proper care this risk is minimal. Circumsicied men are less likely to carry and develope STDs including HIV, Herpes, Syphilis, et al. Circumcision can now be carried out by laser surgery with effective results. Another advantage is you done end up looking like the last turkey in the window at Christmas But see for yourself: HIV risk greater for uncircumcised men. AIDS Patient Care STDS. 2003 Dec;17(12):670. No abstract available. PMID: 14748364 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] The male role in cervical cancer. Salud Publica Mex. 2003;45 Suppl 3:S345-53. PMID: 14746027 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Expression of DC-SIGN in human foreskin may facilitate sexual transmission of HIV. J Clin Pathol. 2004 Jan;57(1):77-8. PMID: 14693841 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Uncircumcised men have high HIV risk. AIDS Read. 2003 Nov;13(11):512. No abstract available. PMID: 14649619 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] [Childhood circumcision: review of the evidence] An Pediatr (Barc). 2003 Nov;59(5):448-53. Review. Spanish. PMID: 14588217 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Risk factors for infection with herpes simplex virus type 2: role of smoking, douching, uncircumcised males, and vaginal flora. Sex Transm Dis. 2003 May;30(5):405-10. PMID: 12916131 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Potential for an intervention based on male circumcision in a South African town with high levels of HIV infection. AIDS Care. 2003 Jun;15(3):315-27. PMID: 12828151 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Male circumcision: an acceptable strategy for HIV prevention in Botswana. Sex Transm Infect. 2003 Jun;79(3):214-9. PMID: 12794204 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Carbon dioxide laser circumcisions for children. Pediatr Surg Int. 2003 Apr;19(1-2):11-3. Epub 2003 Jan 09. PMID: 12721714 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Correlates of human herpesvirus 8 seropositivity among heterosexual men in Kenya. AIDS. 2002 Oct 18;16(15):2073-8. PMID: 12370507 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Circumcision reduces risk of HIV infection. Conference coverage (Vancouver). Sex Wkly Plus. 1996;(Sample No):13. PMID: 12320360 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Risk factors for genital HPV DNA in men resemble those found in women: a study of male attendees at a Danish STD clinic. Sex Transm Infect. 2002 Jun;78(3):215-8. PMID: 12238658 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Before responding to this post please read How not to argue about circumcision. Am J Bioeth. 2003 Spring;3(2):W1. No abstract available. PMID: 14635630 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] The American Academy of Pediatrics reviewed ALL the relevant literature over a 20+ year period and concluded that overall there was insufficient data to show a health benefit. I'm sure you can cherry-pick papers to support your side of the debate, but I go with the most comprehensive review. NO NATIONAL MEDICAL ASSOCIATION IN THE WORLD RECOMMENDS CIRCUMCISION FOR HEALTH REASONS 2003 British Medical Association “The BMA does not believe that parental preference alone constitutes sufficient grounds for performing a surgical procedure on a child unable to express his own view. . . . Parental preference must be weighed in terms of the child's interests. . . . The BMA considers that the evidence concerning health benefit from non-therapeutic circumcision is insufficient for this alone to be a justification for doing it. . . . Some doctors may wish to not perform circumcisions for reasons of conscience. Doctors are under no obligation to comply with a request to circumcise a child.” 2002 Royal Australasian College of Physicians “After extensive review of the literature the RACP reaffirms that there is no medical indication for routine male circumcision. The possibility that routine circumcision may contravene human rights has been raised because circumcision is performed on a minor and is without proven medical benefit. . . . Review of the literature in relation to risks and benefits shows there is no evidence of benefit outweighing harm for circumcision as a routine procedure.” 2002 Canadian Paediatric Society (reaffirmed 1996 position) “Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed.” 2000 American Medical Association “The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics.” 1999 American Academy of Pediatrics “Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision.” 1996 Australian College of Paediatrics “The Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons has informed the College that ‘neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication. It is a traumatic procedure performed without anaesthesia to remove a normal functional and protective prepuce [foreskin].’ ” 1996 Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons “We do not support the removal of a normal part of the body, unless there are definite indications to justify the complications and risks which may arise. In particular, we are opposed to male children being subjected to a procedure, which had they been old enough to consider the advantages and disadvantages, may well have opted to reject the operation and retain their prepuce [foreskin]....The 1989 United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child states that ‘State parties should take all effective and appropriate measures with a view to abolishing traditional practices prejudicial to the health of children.’ ” -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #78 March 19, 2004 Quote I think all the tales of trauma are a little silly. Babies cry when you give them immunizations too. Should we stop that because it isn't a warm lovey cozy feeling? There are pros and cons to circumcision. Generally, the good outweighs the bad. It shouldn't be mandatory, but there isn't anything wrong with it. I really don't understand why some of you people are getting all worked up. To compare a mutilating surgery that has no demonstable benefits with immunization is absurd. No national medical association in the entire world recommends circumcision for health reasons. None. Most specifically argue against it. The health argument is false. If you have it done for "cosmetic" reasons, how is that different from getting breast implants for your daughter or liposuction for your wife without their consent?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #79 March 19, 2004 Times change as do Medical opinion, its good to get a thought out reply almost none of the references you made are after 2002 if you look you'll see that most of the relvent research for my argument has been done since 2002. These are also get out legal clauses for institutional bodies, welcome to the world of litigation led medicine. You'll also notice that not even these esteemed insitutions have an argument for the 'last turkey in Sainsburys argument' When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #80 March 19, 2004 For god sakes get it done for the kids sake. I know chicks that have been like uh, no I don't like that at all and do you really want to put your boy at a disadvantage. ~Chachi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #81 March 19, 2004 Quote For god sakes get it done for the kids sake. I know chicks that have been like uh, no I don't like that at all and do you really want to put your boy at a disadvantage. If leaving the foreskin on acts as a "shallow girl" radar, even more reason to not get him circumcised. Other people's shallowness is no reason to get surgery.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #82 March 19, 2004 Quote Times change as do Medical opinion, its good to get a thought out reply almost none of the references you made are after 2002 if you look you'll see that most of the relvent research for my argument has been done since 2002. These are also get out legal clauses for institutional bodies, welcome to the world of litigation led medicine. You'll also notice that not even these esteemed insitutions have an argument for the 'last turkey in Sainsburys argument' No national medical association in the world recommends routine circumcision for health reasons. None.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #83 March 19, 2004 That doesn't change the fact that uncircumsiced men are more likely to pick up STDs (including HIV) compared to uncircumsiced men. When indulging in the same behaviour. '2003 British Medical Association “The BMA does not believe that parental preference alone constitutes sufficient grounds for performing a surgical procedure on a child unable to express his own view. . . . Parental preference must be weighed in terms of the child's interests. . . . The BMA considers that the evidence concerning health benefit from non-therapeutic circumcision is insufficient for this alone to be a justification for doing it. " However there are theraputic reasons to perform circumcision which the BMA would support. This statement doesn't say that there is no evidence of health benefits but that at the time there was insufficient evidence. Since then much research has been done which is in support of the benifits of clinicaly performed circumcision.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #84 March 19, 2004 Quote Quote I think all the tales of trauma are a little silly. Babies cry when you give them immunizations too. Should we stop that because it isn't a warm lovey cozy feeling? There are pros and cons to circumcision. Generally, the good outweighs the bad. It shouldn't be mandatory, but there isn't anything wrong with it. I really don't understand why some of you people are getting all worked up. To compare a mutilating surgery that has no demonstable benefits with immunization is absurd. No national medical association in the entire world recommends circumcision for health reasons. None. Most specifically argue against it. The health argument is false. If you have it done for "cosmetic" reasons, how is that different from getting breast implants for your daughter or liposuction for your wife without their consent? While I agree with you in many debates, I think you are being selective in what information you accept on this one. There are health benefits, though they are certainly very minor. In your blanket dismissal of them, you are showing an emotional bias, veiled as scientific fact. If you don't want to have your boys circumcised, that's fine. I think you should have that choice. But people should also be able to choose to have it done, either for religious reasons, or for the health benefits. I'm certainly not arguing for any mandate or legislation on the issue. It should be the parents right to choose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #85 March 19, 2004 Quote For fucks sake will you people stop comparing circumcision to female genital mutilation??? Cutting off the glans would be comparable to that. I agree that given the current recommendations by doctors circumcision probably shouldn't be done as a routine procedure, but there are valid medical and religious reason for doing it. Circumcised men live their lives very much like the uncircumcised ones. Try and get some perspective before you go around yelling "MUTILATION"!!! I did not go around yelling anything, nor did I mention the word "MUTILATION". I do however think there's a similarity between removing most of the foreskin and removing most of the clitoris, at least philosophically, and somewhat in physicality. Outside of the obvious difficulty in proving that (the number of people with a properly wired penis and clitoris is zero or darn close to it), it's tough to get a good answer because circumcised men don't know what uncircumcised men feel and vice versa. Someone who's been circumcised as an adult might be able to provide some insight, however there's a good chance their opinion would be biased in favor of circumcision, assuming it was done for religious reasons. As for your statement that "circumcised men live their lives very much like the uncircumcised ones", well of course they do in matters of action (urination, sex, etc), but I'm not sure the same can be said on sensory issues. Then again I have no way of knowing. Blues, Dave P.S. Realise that some of us don't get the "valid religious reasons" for circumcision in the same way we don't get "valid tribal reasons" for female genital mutilation, i.e. both justifications are equally absurd."I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #86 March 19, 2004 Quote valid medical and religious reason for doing it. No.. There aren't... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #87 March 19, 2004 Quote 1999 American Academy of Pediatrics “Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision.” Why thank you, professor. So the American Academy of Pediatrics does think there are potential medical benefits. They are just saying that they may not be sufficient enough to make circumcision a policy decision. They acknowledge the health benefits, but don't feel they merit a political stance. Fine. Why not drop the repeated (false) assertions that there can't be any medical benefit. You are contradicting your cited sources. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #88 March 19, 2004 Oh My God... Some of you people are CLUELESS AND SELFISH.. I'M OUT OF THIS THREAD BEFORE I START TELLING THE "LOP IT OFF" PEOPLE EXACTLY WHAT I THINK OF THEM. IGNORANT TO SAY THE LEAST. IF YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE YOUR CHILD CIRCUMSIZED AT LEAST HAVE THE BALLS TO WATCH IT. THAT'S RIGHT. DON'T BE A COWARD AND LET THE DR'S WISK YOUR CHILD AWAY AND WHEN THEY COME BACK THE DEED IS DONE. GO WATCH IT, HOLD YOUR BABIES HAND AND LOOK HIM IN THE EYES,, IF YOU DON'T YOU ARE COWARDS, THE DR. WON'T LET ME IN YOU SAY? WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS? NOT BECAUSE OF STERILITY. THEY KNOW YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO HANDLE IT. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #89 March 19, 2004 Quote That doesn't change the fact that uncircumsiced men are more likely to pick up STDs NOT A FACT, BUT AN OPINION. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #90 March 19, 2004 I never thought I'd see the day where Kallend and Rhino agree..... And, Rhino, you admitted it yourself that you did it. Some people do it for religious purposes. There's no reason to be harsh about what parents decide.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #91 March 19, 2004 Quote Some occupations, like the military, can put a man where he doesn't have access to running water for significant lengths of time. My dad isn't and it caused him a little grief when he got sent to the Korean War. ...surprised that no one else brought this up. My husband was in the Army (still is, just reserves now) and in the situations his unit found themselves in, they couldn't shower for a week or more on end...any extra skin in that region would provide for a quick infection. Recurrent infections in that area could be dangerous, and would have prevented him from completing his missions in the Army. We have twins boys and they are both circumsized because my husband knows what kind of situations they could find themselves in some day... Quote show that men that get circumsized later in life lose a CONSIDERABLE amount of pleasure. Forgive me here, but how in the HELL can anyone know what pleasure one particular man would have had one way or the other?? Are they taking comparsions between 20 year-old 'cut' and 'un-cut' men on here? What if those 2 men had completely different levels of 'pleasure' to begin with?! Is anyone on here dumb enough to say that all female orgasms are the same?? And we don't even have a surgical debate to work with...we just experience things differently. And Rhino...I'd be very careful when stating that any 'religious' reason is not valid... Maybe not to you, sir.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vdschoor 0 #92 March 19, 2004 Hmm this thread is starting to go weird.. I think overall it's up to the parents, if you think circumcision is the right thing to do, do it. As stated earlier there are no (real) medical reasons to do it, so it's the parents call. If there are religious reasons to do this, do it. If you feel it's the right thing to do for your kid, do it. Basically what it comes down to is that the parents should decide if that is what they want or not and do what they feel is best. For me personally, my kids (if I am lucky enough to have some one day) will not be circumcised (unless my partner thinks otherwise of course), I am not and I don't see a reason why my kids should be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #93 March 19, 2004 Jaye- They're talking about men who were circumcised later in life. These men noticed a very noticable decrease in pleasure after their circumcision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripple 0 #94 March 19, 2004 Quote Ripple... If you have scars where I have scars, we're not going to be comparing ANYTHING! t Teehee! I have scars everywhere! But that's ok, I'll just have to imagine Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #95 March 19, 2004 I actually discussed it with my lady last night. Unbelieveably, she brought it up!!! We are concerned about our son feeling pain or getting hurt. The more I reasd this thread, the more seriously I am considering not having him circumcised. And yet, many reasons for ding so are being validated, too. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #96 March 19, 2004 Once a circumcision is done, its done. If its something your child wants, let him make his own decision when he's old enough. what its coming down to is that health benefits, if any, are exremely slight. The reason is mostly aesthetic, so bascially, when you have a baby circumcised, you're performing cosmetic surgery on a child. You wouldn't give your kid a nose job if his nose was perfectly fine at birth, would ya? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripple 0 #97 March 19, 2004 Just my 2p worth: I prefer a man who's not circumcised. I've been with men who are 'cut' and 'un-cut', and 'cut', is, er, um, harder work....Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #98 March 19, 2004 Quote The more I reasd this thread, the more seriously I am considering not having him circumcised. And yet, many reasons for ding so are being validated, too. Are any of the reasons for compelling and urgent enough to not wait and let him decide? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #99 March 19, 2004 Quote Are any of the reasons for compelling and urgent enough to not wait and let him decide? Must've been Rhino's shouting! There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #100 March 19, 2004 Quote Jaye- They're talking about men who were circumcised later in life. These men noticed a very noticable decrease in pleasure after their circumcision. Oh Ok. I guess that makes sense. The only little 'but' that would be hanging around in my head is that anything done while young would have 18 years to heal and actually grow before much ..uh...real-life 'use' (we would hope ) ...whereas if an adult had it done, they aren't growing any more, and their body isn't going to change and adapt...-But that's just a random thought that occured. Not sure if that would be true or not. I know if I hadn't had our twins circumsized, they definitely would have had problems. They are different than average boys, however. I wouldn't hold it against any parent that chose not to. I'd hope that nobody else would hold it against us because based on our life experiences we chose to do it; and it was the right decision for a number of reasons.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
