topdocker 0 #26 June 23, 2010 Quote But look at the attached photo and decide if you want to take gear advice from those guys. Dave While I may not want to take a whole lot of advice from these guys about dressing for success, flossing, or relationships, they might know more about gear than you think. There's a whole lot of world records and Nationals medals standing there! MTCW, I've got over 5000 jumps on my pull-out, and our CRW team has had over 25,000. I don't think we've had more than 1 or 2 dropped puds in all the years, because someone was sloppy and not on the ball. Before that, we had throw-outs with all sorts of tows and variations in opening altitude. I jump a pull out on my freefall gear as well. topJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #27 June 24, 2010 Quote Very important: pullout & packers is not always a good combination I've never had a problem. 4000ish jumps on pullouts. 400ish wingsuit jumps on pullouts. 500ish paid pack jobs on pullouts. I've had one problem EVER, related to a pullout and that's because I failed to maintain my rig properly. YMMV---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #28 June 24, 2010 Quote Quote I think just about every serious CRW team I've seen had pullouts on their rigs Now don't go confusing the issue with CRW rigs. They're in their own world! At the 2008 USPA nationals I noticed some of them seemed to be jumping a hybrid setup... pilot chute in a BOC, but pullout pin to open the container. Actually ripcord cable from the PC to the closing loop if I remember correctly. But look at the attached photo and decide if you want to take gear advice from those guys. Dave Next thing we'll be hearing the "it's an out of sequence deployment" argument. Uhh....in that case, so is your reserve.As for advice from "those guys", yeah I'd listen up. Not only are they some of the best canopy pilots in the world, they actually KNOW something about their gear, as opposed to a largeish portion of modern sport jumpers.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blink 1 #29 June 24, 2010 QuoteNext thing we'll be hearing the "it's an out of sequence deployment" argument. Uhh....in that case, so is your reserve. I've never heard that before, but will be repeating it frequently, thank you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #30 June 24, 2010 Just for the record, I was kidding! I know they're all riggers too... how else are they going to make the next round of competition after a wrap?! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #31 June 24, 2010 Quote Next thing we'll be hearing the "it's an out of sequence deployment" argument. Not from me. I never understood that one. Who says there's a proper sequence? If the canopy opens, I'm not complaining. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #32 June 24, 2010 Ok, I'll bite. Who are they? (out of curiosity). Its always interesting to learn about world class skydivers.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #33 June 24, 2010 QuoteOK as long as the rig is small enough (or your arms are long enough) to reach back and place an open hand flat on your pin cover. That's what it takes to retrieve a floating pud and avoid a reserve pull. You can also roll slightly left and it will make it easier. But all said and done, I prefer a pull out."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blink 1 #34 June 24, 2010 QuoteOK as long as the rig is small enough (or your arms are long enough) to reach back and place an open hand flat on your pin cover. That's what it takes to retrieve a floating pud and avoid a reserve pull. Is there anyone that can't reach that? Basically you're asking if they can give themselves a pin check. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #35 June 24, 2010 QuoteIs there anyone that can't reach that? Basically you're asking if they can give themselves a pin check Not everyone can give themselves a pin check. New jumpers with large rigs cannot always reach that far back. 'Bigger' jumpers, who also jump bigger rigs and may have reduced flexibility cannot always reacj that far back. Older jumpers with reduced flexibility cannot always reach that far back. Jumpers with shoulder injuries leading to reduced flexibility cannot always reach that far back. Additionally, there's a difference between being able to slip a fingertip under your pin cover flap, and being able to reach back and grab a dancing pud bridle behind your back, which is why I suggested being able to place your palm flat on your pin cover flap. This ensures that you have the reach to get back there, and actually make the grab when the time comes (and it will come, because puds will float). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DARK 0 #36 June 25, 2010 QuoteOk, I'll bite. Who are they? (out of curiosity). Its always interesting to learn about world class skydivers. i think the guy second from the left is keith tivedge(sorry for destroying the second name) who is on the us crw team and gave me my introduction to crw id pretty much take his advice on gear over most other peoples Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #37 June 25, 2010 Nope, not Keith. Don't happen to know who it is, but Keith didn't compete in CRW in 2008... he was doing 4-way video. I have no shortage of pics of him though! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #38 June 25, 2010 L - R: Kenny Backus, Chuck Backus and I don't know the other two.... Kenny, Chuck and I were on a 4 way rotations team in Zhills in 96 till Chuck and his GF broke up and we were down to a three way team."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DARK 0 #39 June 25, 2010 i hope we get some crw going on here this summer was easily the best part of last summer anyway carry on :p Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #40 June 28, 2010 Speaking of the pros and cons, a friend of mine had his second reserve ride yesterday, thanks to a floating handle on his pullout which he couldn't reach.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #41 June 28, 2010 For the past week I have been packing pull-outs for other people (in practice for when I get mine!) and I have to say that not having to fold up the pilot chute at the end of the pack-job is an added benefit which I had not thought of. I have started to hate that step when I pack my own throw-out system. Lazy, I know, but true nonetheless...."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,080 #42 June 28, 2010 >I have to say that not having to fold up the pilot chute at the end of >the pack-job is an added benefit which I had not thought of. Yikes! You DO have to fold up the PC when packing a pullout! It's a different method, but you still have to fold it. You're not just stuffing it in a corner, are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #43 June 28, 2010 Quote>I have to say that not having to fold up the pilot chute at the end of >the pack-job is an added benefit which I had not thought of. Yikes! You DO have to fold up the PC when packing a pullout! It's a different method, but you still have to fold it. You're not just stuffing it in a corner, are you? No, not just stuffing it in! The guys I pack for are jumping Velocities from 90 to 103 and are very particular about their pack-jobs. The method I have been taught involves 'inverting' the PC (as though it was collapsed by the kill line, although, of course it is NOT) and then just lying it in the pack tray in that configuration. S-fold the bridle and that's it. Much quicker than prepping a PC for a BOC in my opinion."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tetra316 0 #44 June 28, 2010 QuoteQuote>I have to say that not having to fold up the pilot chute at the end of >the pack-job is an added benefit which I had not thought of. Yikes! You DO have to fold up the PC when packing a pullout! It's a different method, but you still have to fold it. You're not just stuffing it in a corner, are you? The method I have been taught involves 'inverting' the PC (as though it was collapsed by the kill line, although, of course it is NOT) and then just lying it in the pack tray in that configuration. S-fold the bridle and that's it. Quote You can do that with a boc pilot chute. In fact some well known packers at Perris do just that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,446 #45 June 28, 2010 Hi bill, QuoteYikes! You DO have to fold up the PC when packing a pullout! I disagree. Having jumped a pull-out for many years & jumps I always just 'flopped' them on top of the bag. But make sure you do everything else in the proper manner. YMMV!!!!!!! JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DocPop 1 #46 June 28, 2010 Quote You can do that with a boc pilot chute. In fact some well known packers at Perris do just that. I have always been careful to use Brian Germain's "anti-horseshoe" method for the BOC which is a bit of a ball-ache, but gives me peace-of-mind."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #47 June 28, 2010 >I disagree. Having jumped a pull-out for many years & jumps I always >just 'flopped' them on top of the bag. Well, and I know a lot of people who just stuff their PC into the BOC pouch with no folding at all; it works for them too. But I think it's a bad idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stevo 0 #48 June 30, 2010 jumped a pull-out for my first 2300 jumps, had surgery for a torn rotator cuff last year. i don't believe it was the sole cause of the injury but certainly think it contributed, it's not real nice on the shoulder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #49 July 1, 2010 QuoteAnd I believe the inventor of both systems has posted on here that he prefers throwouts. Correct. Bill Booth holds patent for both throw out and pull out. Here is what he says: "I thought this was settled 10 years ago, but I guess it's good to go over it again for the newbies. I have the patent on both the hand deploy and pullout sytems, so I am biased only by 30 years of observation. One was a good idea...One wasn't. 1. A BOC pilot chute, in a spandex pouch, is by far the most reliable deployment system for your main. Hard pulls and pilot chutes in tow are very, very rare, and floating handles are, by definition, impossible. Add to this the fact that you can't "throw" a pullout out of the burble (which extends well beyond your fingertips in a stable face to earth deployment position) because you never have ahold of the pilot chute itself. You end up "dropping" your pullout in the burble everytime, unless you contort your body (go slightly unstable) right at pilot chute release to "break-up" the burble. All successful pull-out jumpers have developed this talent, whether they realize it or not. But we all know that being "slightly unstable" at pull time is not a good idea with a small elliptical canopy. 2. We all also know that "out of sequence" deployments are not a good thing. (For instance: You don't want your canopy to get out of the bag before your lines unstow, do you?) Well, do you really want you main container open before your pilot chute is developing drag? A pullout deployment is out of sequence by definition. These first two reasons is why wing suit jumpers shy away from pullouts, but they apply equally to everybody. 3. Since both pullouts and BOC throwouts are in the same location, with similar (if not identical) handles, it hard to make the argument that a pullout is more secure to freefly with. 4. The lost pud (pullout handle) malfunction is very dangerous, because you "know" you can fix it if you just try a little longer. Many very experience jumpers have gone all the way into the ground working on that theory. 5. No one in their right mind would start a student out with a pullout. Why? Because everyone knows that they are simply harder to operate correctly. This means you must transition to pullout (probably with no instruction) and all transitions carry risks. (I know, if you start out with a ripcord, you have to transition to a hand deploy. But one transition is better than two, and main ripcord deployments are invaluable training for that inevitable first reserve ride.) 6. Over 95% of the rigs we sell are hand deploy, so it has become the defacto standard. With no real advantage to pullout, adhering to a standard is better for everybody because of problems caused by borrowed and used gear. I'm not saying it's impossible to jump a pullout safely. I know many jumpers who have done it for thousands of jumps. What I am saying is that it is harder, and therefore will result in more deployment problems than a BOC. You have enough to worry about on a skydive. Why add a pullout to the list?" AND "I have read this entire thread and must say that the pros and cons of this subject have been very well covered. However, perhaps I can add some insight. As the patent holder on both the pull out and throw out pilot chute systems, I have listened to customers jump stories about both for the past 25 years. Hand deploy pilot chutes had a lot of problems in the early days. But these problems have mostly disappeared as the result of design improvements like the Spandex pouch, the bottom of container (BOC) location (borrowed from the pull out), and covered bridle paths. However, the same old problems with the pullout, such as lost handles and no-pulls due to improper packing still remain. Plus, while the throw out allows you to actually throw the pilot chute into the clean air outside the burble, the pull out forces you to release the pilot chute inside the burble. To get hesitation free deployments, pull out jumpers have to momentarily alter their body position to break up the burble. On small, highly loaded ellipticals, this can cause line twists, which can become malfunctions. Perhaps this is why a good 95% of my customers, including me, jump throwouts. I would say that the jumping public has already settled this debate. Both systems work when correctly maintained, packed, and deployed. However, people just seem to have fewer problems with today's manifestation of the throw out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #50 July 1, 2010 QuoteQuote You can do that with a boc pilot chute. In fact some well known packers at Perris do just that. I have always been careful to use Brian Germain's "anti-horseshoe" method for the BOC which is a bit of a ball-ache, but gives me peace-of-mind. HERE: http://www.bigairsportz.com/art-pilotchute.php Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
JerryBaumchen 1,446 #45 June 28, 2010 Hi bill, QuoteYikes! You DO have to fold up the PC when packing a pullout! I disagree. Having jumped a pull-out for many years & jumps I always just 'flopped' them on top of the bag. But make sure you do everything else in the proper manner. YMMV!!!!!!! JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #46 June 28, 2010 Quote You can do that with a boc pilot chute. In fact some well known packers at Perris do just that. I have always been careful to use Brian Germain's "anti-horseshoe" method for the BOC which is a bit of a ball-ache, but gives me peace-of-mind."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,080 #47 June 28, 2010 >I disagree. Having jumped a pull-out for many years & jumps I always >just 'flopped' them on top of the bag. Well, and I know a lot of people who just stuff their PC into the BOC pouch with no folding at all; it works for them too. But I think it's a bad idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevo 0 #48 June 30, 2010 jumped a pull-out for my first 2300 jumps, had surgery for a torn rotator cuff last year. i don't believe it was the sole cause of the injury but certainly think it contributed, it's not real nice on the shoulder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #49 July 1, 2010 QuoteAnd I believe the inventor of both systems has posted on here that he prefers throwouts. Correct. Bill Booth holds patent for both throw out and pull out. Here is what he says: "I thought this was settled 10 years ago, but I guess it's good to go over it again for the newbies. I have the patent on both the hand deploy and pullout sytems, so I am biased only by 30 years of observation. One was a good idea...One wasn't. 1. A BOC pilot chute, in a spandex pouch, is by far the most reliable deployment system for your main. Hard pulls and pilot chutes in tow are very, very rare, and floating handles are, by definition, impossible. Add to this the fact that you can't "throw" a pullout out of the burble (which extends well beyond your fingertips in a stable face to earth deployment position) because you never have ahold of the pilot chute itself. You end up "dropping" your pullout in the burble everytime, unless you contort your body (go slightly unstable) right at pilot chute release to "break-up" the burble. All successful pull-out jumpers have developed this talent, whether they realize it or not. But we all know that being "slightly unstable" at pull time is not a good idea with a small elliptical canopy. 2. We all also know that "out of sequence" deployments are not a good thing. (For instance: You don't want your canopy to get out of the bag before your lines unstow, do you?) Well, do you really want you main container open before your pilot chute is developing drag? A pullout deployment is out of sequence by definition. These first two reasons is why wing suit jumpers shy away from pullouts, but they apply equally to everybody. 3. Since both pullouts and BOC throwouts are in the same location, with similar (if not identical) handles, it hard to make the argument that a pullout is more secure to freefly with. 4. The lost pud (pullout handle) malfunction is very dangerous, because you "know" you can fix it if you just try a little longer. Many very experience jumpers have gone all the way into the ground working on that theory. 5. No one in their right mind would start a student out with a pullout. Why? Because everyone knows that they are simply harder to operate correctly. This means you must transition to pullout (probably with no instruction) and all transitions carry risks. (I know, if you start out with a ripcord, you have to transition to a hand deploy. But one transition is better than two, and main ripcord deployments are invaluable training for that inevitable first reserve ride.) 6. Over 95% of the rigs we sell are hand deploy, so it has become the defacto standard. With no real advantage to pullout, adhering to a standard is better for everybody because of problems caused by borrowed and used gear. I'm not saying it's impossible to jump a pullout safely. I know many jumpers who have done it for thousands of jumps. What I am saying is that it is harder, and therefore will result in more deployment problems than a BOC. You have enough to worry about on a skydive. Why add a pullout to the list?" AND "I have read this entire thread and must say that the pros and cons of this subject have been very well covered. However, perhaps I can add some insight. As the patent holder on both the pull out and throw out pilot chute systems, I have listened to customers jump stories about both for the past 25 years. Hand deploy pilot chutes had a lot of problems in the early days. But these problems have mostly disappeared as the result of design improvements like the Spandex pouch, the bottom of container (BOC) location (borrowed from the pull out), and covered bridle paths. However, the same old problems with the pullout, such as lost handles and no-pulls due to improper packing still remain. Plus, while the throw out allows you to actually throw the pilot chute into the clean air outside the burble, the pull out forces you to release the pilot chute inside the burble. To get hesitation free deployments, pull out jumpers have to momentarily alter their body position to break up the burble. On small, highly loaded ellipticals, this can cause line twists, which can become malfunctions. Perhaps this is why a good 95% of my customers, including me, jump throwouts. I would say that the jumping public has already settled this debate. Both systems work when correctly maintained, packed, and deployed. However, people just seem to have fewer problems with today's manifestation of the throw out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #50 July 1, 2010 QuoteQuote You can do that with a boc pilot chute. In fact some well known packers at Perris do just that. I have always been careful to use Brian Germain's "anti-horseshoe" method for the BOC which is a bit of a ball-ache, but gives me peace-of-mind. HERE: http://www.bigairsportz.com/art-pilotchute.php Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
