Ron 10 #1 April 30, 2004 A carry on from this thread. We will define "friend" as a person you have off DZ contact with. Someone you had dinner with , called, emailed...ect. Not just a person you "know", or "know of". My last post (Have you seen) was about 45/55. Now I think that it is not 100% and I am sure some said yes enev though they were no there, and I know of cases where people have lied to appear more "experienced"...But the 50/50 was surprizing to even me....Its not scientific but I have my reasons for asking these questions. I am betting that this one will be higher than 70%....And my next close to 85% For me yes."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatmissile 0 #2 April 30, 2004 What would this information be in aid of other than morbid curiosity? Not that I am critical, I'd just like to know if there is some scientific point that I am missing. Edited to add: people very quickly claim to have been a 'friend' of the victim of an accident. Human nature, I guess, but equally inexplicable. -- ZZZzzzz.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weegegirl 2 #3 April 30, 2004 Blue skies, Pops! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #4 April 30, 2004 I was in the bar district the other night. I passed this guy wearing a t-shirt with a big leaf on it. He was drunk and walking past the police and making little "toke" gestures and laughing. The police just laughed because they understood the big picture. The attitude is always the same... I've gotten away with it 1000 times. The police understand that the previous 1000 times don't matter. The 1001st time when they are drunk and obnoxious and put in a police car... and they are searched. It's the last one that counts. I had an acquaintance with over 4000 jumps, ratings, etc. Over 2000 successful low, high-speed turns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #5 April 30, 2004 QuoteWhat would this information be in aid of other than morbid curiosity? Not that I am critical, I'd just like to know if there is some scientific point that I am missing I think this post says it best http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1058718#1058718 QuoteThis is depressing to talk about, but I think it does make us more aware of what can happen. A lot of new jumpers actually think driving to the airport is more dangerous than jumping.....Steve1 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #6 April 30, 2004 Unfortunately more than one. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatmissile 0 #7 April 30, 2004 You don't think all this talk of death is likely to put potential skydivers reading this forum off what is really a very safe sport? Aside from being unseasonally gloomy, that is? Edited to add: QuoteA lot of new jumpers actually think driving to the airport is more dangerous than jumping.....Steve1 Statistically speaking, they would be right. -- ZZZzzzz.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #8 April 30, 2004 QuoteYou don't think all this talk of death is likely to put potential skydivers reading this forum off what is really a very safe sport? Good. This sport is not safe....Do a search on here and read up on these debates. Fact is....Most people on here are going to know someone that died skydiving....I can't say that for driving to the DZ. Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A lot of new jumpers actually think driving to the airport is more dangerous than jumping.....Steve1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Statistically speaking, they would be right. No they would not....Do a search again. I have lost many more friends to skydiving than ALL other forms of death. Now as I get older illness I am sure will take more and more. But like I sais skydiving is not safe, and the thought that it is is the very reason I post these...New people, and people that have never jumped need to understand that people die in this sport.... It was said best by Kevin here: QuoteHere's what alot of folks are trying to tell you. Next time you're at your DZ where apparently you are so well admired, look around. Look at your instructors, those "skygods" that jump so well. Look at that cute girl that is so hot. How 'bout "ole trusty" over there that's been jumping since before dirt. Maybe there's a super conservative guy that's real anal about his gear. There's that young kid that's made a bajillion jumps in about 2 years and swoops as pure as the new driven snow. Look at all of them, the ones that you like, the ones you don't, the ones you barely know. Look real hard, because in 5 years, one of them is gonna be dead. Unless, of course, it's you. And you can't say that about all the folks you know that drive. Kevin O'Connell I have a lot more friends that drive..But I have more dead skydivers in my life than dead drivers."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tandembrent 0 #9 April 30, 2004 his name was pops! we were as close as you could be and not be related! his death was in the middle of possibly the worst period of my life. i will miss him until i die! forever in our hearts!~~~~Green grass and high clouds forever~~~~ no matter where you go, there you are! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #10 April 30, 2004 QuoteStatistically speaking, they would be right. Do you realize how impossible it is to statistically compare two acts that are so different? For example, which of the following do you look at? Car accidents per car ride VS Incidents per skydive Car accidents per driver VS Incidents per skydiver Car accidents per minute of driving VS incidents per skydive Car accidents because of equipment failure VS Incidents because of equipment failure Car accidents because of driver error VS Incidents because of jumper error Most drivers spend hours in their car every week but only get in and out the door a few times. Most skydivers spend a few minutes in the air every weekend and get in and out of the door several times. Since you can make such conrete, certain statements comparing the safety levels of the two activities, I can only assume you've conducted a statistical analysis to back up that claim. Feel free to post it, or a link to the countless threads that have attempted to do the same thing and always ended up presenting all the problems associated with it. All that ranting aside, statistics are good for nothing. They don't tell which is safer - they tell which is more successful in practice, which depends on other factors. I was in a long discussion about this same thing on a kitesurfing forum the other day. Someone claimed that a jumbo jet is the safest way to travel. I laughed. Just because less people die on airliners does not mean they're safer than cars. It means the pilots are trained much more thoroughly (because it's so dangerous) and it's regulated much more (because it's so dangerous). Only an idiot would claim that flying miles above the earth at 100's of mph, moving in 3 dimensions, is safer than moving along the surface of the earth, in 2 dimensions, at speeds usually much less than 100mph. Skydiving is inherently more dangerous than driving. You are much higher off the ground, you are moving much faster, and you are moving in 3 dimensions instead of 2. Or as an engineer would say, your potential and kinetic energies are much higher so an impact will damage you a lot more. You depend on your gear to save your life every time you use it, also unlike driving. Statistics do not tell you anything about safety and even if they could, you cannot conduct a fair analysis of this situation. EDITED to add one more thought - Even if it could be proven that skydiving was "statistically safer" than driving, it would be almost entirely in part to the higher level of training and regulation in skydiving (similar to the jet explanation above). Next time you're yelling at the idiot on the road going straight with his turn signal on and a cell phone stuck to his head, imagine someone with that level of awareness in freefall. Imagine a world of ignorant drivers in freefall. If all drivers took up skydiving, the incident rates would be so high that the population would be visibly smaller...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #11 April 30, 2004 QuoteHave you had a friend die while skydiving? Yes7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatmissile 0 #12 April 30, 2004 QuoteGood. This sport is not safe.... So what do you advocate? That people stop skydiving? I am trying really hard to see your point here. Are you saying skydivers are not informed enough of the risks they are taking? What part of "falling from an aeroplane" do you think is not well understood? Maybe people with less that 1000 jumps should not be permitted to skydive? -- ZZZzzzz.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #13 April 30, 2004 QuoteI am trying really hard to see your point here. I never thought I'd be speaking for Ron, but I think his point is that if the danger was taken more seriously, incidents would happen less frequently. As a newbie, I always hear that in the "old days", gear failure fatalites were common... but now that those are almost things of the past, the new killer is low turns - something which can be prevented by giving people the right knowledge and attitude. I think that's what Ron's trying to do...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kansasskydiver 0 #14 April 30, 2004 yes <--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatmissile 0 #15 April 30, 2004 QuoteDo you realize how impossible it is to statistically compare two acts that are so different? For example, which of the following do you look at? No, it is very simple. Just look at: fatalities divide by(person multiply by seconds of active paricipation) I'll grant you that this is an impossible calculation to make due to the unavailability of data, but I am guessing that the results of such a calculation, would it ever be performed, would show that skydiving is safer than many activities. It is probably safer than sex by a comfortable margin. I'll say it again - I am guessing, but then again, so are you... QuoteI never thought I'd be speaking for Ron, but I think his point is that if the danger was taken more seriously, incidents would happen less frequently. This is true. But maybe that should be more carefully explained, instead of taking the "I've lost friends" approach. I think this may cause a misrepresentation of the facts, because people seem to want to be able to say "I knew him..." even if they only saw someone once. -- ZZZzzzz.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #16 April 30, 2004 QuoteWe will define "friend" as a person you have off DZ contact with. Someone you had dinner with , called, emailed...ect. Per that definition, no. Have I known people who've died in this sport? Yes. But not "friends" according to the above parameters. I voted NO. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AntiPinkChrissy 0 #17 April 30, 2004 QuoteUnfortunately more than one. Same here. And also a handful that have broken themselves and will probably never jump again or it will take quite some healing time. One of the suckiest parts is I know that there will be more ~La La Gang Member #2~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #18 April 30, 2004 I voted yes.. Long time ago.. and it still hurts. Survivor guilt sucks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #19 April 30, 2004 That calculation still wouldn't prove which is safer - just which is more successful, i.e. which resulted in less deaths. Driving results in many more deaths per capita than airliner piloting, but it is not safer. The participants are just trained better in piloting and stupider in driving. The intelligence or level of training of those participants says nothing about how safe the activity itself is.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygoddess 0 #20 April 30, 2004 Quote It is probably safer than sex by a comfortable margin. When Mullins was at Coolidge still, they had a sign up at manifest with a condom, stating that skydiving is safer than unprotected sex. He also use to say that "You have a better chance of the stearing wheel of your car fall off in your lap on your way to the DZ than for your reserve to fail" well maybe but Marc had a double mal and there are lots that miss him including myself, I know his could have been avoided and many were argueing over it, but still hi reserve failed and I don't remeber anyone saying that their stearing wheel feel off in ther laps, ever... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #21 April 30, 2004 QuoteSo what do you advocate? That people stop skydiving? Thats just a red herring comment designed to provoke a reaction. QuoteAre you saying skydivers are not informed enough of the risks they are taking? Now that comment shows cognitive thinking...And it's dead on. Just like you think driving is safer than skydiving... A large number of people skydive and never have thought about the risks. There is a large portion of new jumpers in the skydiving population that thinks skydiving is safe. Its not. By the very nature of the sport it is not safe...I'm not getting into this here...Please search, read, and if you choose to comment on it do it in that thread."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AntiPinkChrissy 0 #22 April 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteI am trying really hard to see your point here. I never thought I'd be speaking for Ron, but I think his point is that if the danger was taken more seriously, incidents would happen less frequently. As a newbie, I always hear that in the "old days", gear failure fatalites were common... but now that those are almost things of the past, the new killer is low turns - something which can be prevented by giving people the right knowledge and attitude. I think that's what Ron's trying to do... I'm taking a guess that that is his point too. Also why take on additional risks that make this sport even more dangerous. Like jumping a canopy above your ability, jumping in bad conditions, going on a jump that you don't have the experience to be on and not having a plan for when the sh*t hits the fan. ~La La Gang Member #2~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usedtajump 1 #23 April 30, 2004 Being older than the majority of posters here, I've attended many funerals for relatives, friends, co workers, etc. but the majority of the funerals I've attended in all these years have been for skydivers. Jumping out of an airplane requires a certain amount of rationalization regarding the danger aspect and we tend to get comfortable with that. It needs to be kept in mind that, in reality, skydiving is an irrational act tempered with as much technical and theoretical safety backup as possible. Most of the time it works, sometimes............well.... Skydiving is dangerous no matter how you rationalize it.The older I get the less I care who I piss off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kansasskydiver 0 #24 April 30, 2004 QuoteI voted yes.. Long time ago.. and it still hurts. Survivor guilt sucks. Do you mind sharing? If it's a touchy subject I understand. I'm sorry to hear that you too have lost someone. I lost one of my dear friends almost 3 years ago, although he was alone when it happened, we were all there and affected by his loss<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #25 April 30, 2004 QuoteDo you mind sharing? He chopped away from a streamer he was screwing with WAY too low...everyone was screaming to cut away forever it seemed..when he finally did it was far too low...and the round reserve never had time to inflate. I think some people would put something like that on a crater tour.. I for one am glad I jump at places that do not have such "traditions"... there is far too much morbid curiosity by some here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
