Three fatal accidents in a week

[popsjumper 2]

-Joey-

Is there a statistical correlation between "new jump season" and incidents? Maybe an article needs to be written about things to keep in mind when regaining currency...

The prime objective of Safety Day. And several articles have been written.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...I'm not going to change my skydiving procedures based on internet chat room discussion.

This raises an important point for you youngsters out there.

Here's a mental tool for your skydiving toolbox:

No, none of us are going to blindly do anything suggested without evaluating the suggestions for validity.

You get info here or anywhere, you think about it, you mull it around in your brain, you come up with questions and "what ifs" and you discuss it with others....other experienced and knowledgeable skydivers and instructors.

Keep in mind that USPAs basic best practices recommendations and teaching guidelines have been developed over a long period of time and it would be foolish to ignore them.

Granted, new technology presents new problems that need to be addressed but the same evaluation process applies - think, mull, question, discuss. Then and only then, decide.

Low cutaway fatalities, in general, can be faulted to not following best EP practices for whatever reason. And no, I am not saying that these specific ones fall in that generalization.

Be aware that what may seem logical to you right now may not be good - quite often the logic is flawed by lack of adequate information. It's better to assume you don't know something and ask than it is to assume you DO know.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kallend 2,112]

AdD

I've absorbed it, but I'm not going to change my skydiving procedures based on internet chat room discussion. You replied WTF to my post but have you ever had line twists with a tandem passenger who was too fat for you to kick out of the twist? Would you rather chop or try pulling a toggle first if you had the altitude?

It was internet chat room discussion that established that "the 45 degree rule" was garbage. It has been well over 10 years since that happened, yet still there are instructional rating holders who preach the "rule".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[erdnarob 1]

In Canada, according the past 10-15 years statistics, we can see that there are more fatalities in April-May and in July months than during other jumping months of the year.

Beginning of the season is always a problem. People think there are ready after 5 months of Winter. Many do not even bother to attend the Safety Day either. Not talking about a good review of emergency procedures.

My thought is that we skydivers are a bit like aircraft pilots. If you fly in any club and haven't flown for more that two months (some clubs ask one month), well, you have to go with an instructor for a couple of touch and go until he is satisfied with your aircraft handling.

I have seen skydivers do their first jump of the year with new gear, new canopy, new helmet, camera on it, and do group skydiving. That way, they have accumulated at least 5 difficulty factors and, at 5 they put themselves in danger.

For the month of July, heat and humidity can lower drastically our vigilance and can decrease our ability to react fast and properly to an emergency situation. Lack of being proprerly hydrated and fatigue due to heat is also a problem.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[normiss 859]

Two of the recent incidents happened in Florida.
WHAT "season" are you referring to?

[NWFlyer 2]

normiss

Two of the recent incidents happened in Florida.
WHAT "season" are you referring to?

And another was in Southern CA, involving a local jumper. They don't do "seasons" either.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[feuergnom 29]

brilliant pic indeed. no suit (not even a hint of usefull legprotection/fabric) for the "TI", no suit for pax....
thats more than enough for starters.....
I still can't get that mindset

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[erdnarob 1]

When I am refering to jumping season I mean the months between April and November like it is in Canada and Northern USA. The two fatalities in Florida involved two visitors from Northern Europe having probably stayed several months without jumping.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[billvon 3,080]

>WHAT "season" are you referring to?

The beginning of the skydiving season. Even at places with no "winter" (like Perris) we see people who jump a lot in the summer, not at all in the winter and then return in spring. We also get a lot of people from the UK, Russia, France, Japan etc and they don't jump in the winter either.

[ChrisD 0]

I don't know dude,....


statistically there is nothing here that is off limits or unusuall, even if we had 4 fatals at differing locations this would not be statistically relevant.

Large numbers of non-current jumpers? + 10 !!!!

Other than that, I'm still going to call this:

"The Memorial Day Massacar."


C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[billvon 3,080]

Every year we see a spate of problems from people who are uncurrent from last year. Some are people from overseas who haven't jumped since last fall, some are competitors who went to Nationals and don't form a new team until the spring, some are locals who don't jump much over the winter.

[ChrisD 0]

I'm up in New England and have quietly been asking for various DZ's "list" of who has participated in refresher's and safety day attendance. (I am not, nor do I need names of any individuals. I only need a general feel for the numbers of experienced jumpers and their attitudes on safety. In fact knowing names of individuals I know makes it all tha harder to form independent observations. In fact many of my weekends have been spent travelling to places where they don't know me, and I don't know them.)

Up here this info was important because there is a larger base population of jumpers that do not jump over the winter and they are easy'r to identify.

I thought it would make more sense to actually see this in action. I'm more confused than ever?

Curancy is turning out to be a troublsome thing to understand. I will say that it is starting to appear that this rash of fatals is not license dependant.

This means that currency is a largeer factor in safety than your "D" lic!

Mental note to all of you D holders out there, if you belive that your experience is going to save your ass, you are mistaken!

As a phenom with a certian face validity:

Currency is more important than experience.

But the held attitudes are that, and this is from speaking with way to many skydivers that lable themselves as "expert," is that "they" don't need nor is it required by the sim to be current!

When the sim was written by "Expeert" skydivers they conviently have written in their held attitudes. This does call into question USPA's policies on teaching if in fact this expeert bias has snuck into the curriculium! A perfect example of this are the numerous references to having two different cutaway procedures! We should have one PERIOD.

But if you carefully read the sim /irm you will see multiple references to do: "What you have been taught at your local school..."

The bible of teaching shouldn't throw students to the wolves so to speak and is prima facie evidence that ego's and personalities rule, and not a unified plan! This is also evidence of how this bias has snuck into things, it is soo prevelant that most wil have difficulty understanding this!

But Nature is having the last laugh!

Darwin in action so to speak.

Currency is currency and not a function of experience, untill this attitude changes and the sim is re-written to exclude this loophole in thinking, I suspect that this fatal rate will peersist forever!

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[Amazon 7]

If you stick around long enough in the sport....

You tend to see the pattern of when your friends died

[kallend 2,112]

BUMP

It seems we have a rash of fatalities at the beginning of every season

Be careful out there folks, especially if not current.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jumpwally 0]

Anyone know what the current count is ? Are we trending better or worse than last season ?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[kallend 2,112]

jumpwally

Anyone know what the current count is ? Are we trending better or worse than last season ?

8 in N. America to date in 2014, which is more than to the same date last year.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[katzas 1]

Ron

Quote

But why do you assume that a mal from 12,500 is going to cost you your life?

Because it is safer to assume that and act now than to try something cool and risk another problem from preventing you from dealing with it later.

1-10-100 principal. The faster you fix a problem, the less energy it costs to fix the problem.

Lets say you chop from 12k.... Well you can always follow your main. Yes, you might lose the freebag.

Now lets say you decide to ride the wild ride. Soon you find yourself dizzy and starting to black out. Guess what? Now it might be too late to chop.

Why risk it?

Again, 2000 dollar vs my life. Easy to answer.

Precisely correct. You main is a mess and you're relatively ok with it AT THAT MOMENT. You have absolutely no idea what is going to happen IN THE NEXT MOMENT. The relatively gentle spin you're in could accelerate at any moment to a high g-force situation where you might not be able to do what you planned to do--that is, ride it down to a lower altitude and then chop. I've had two--and as soon as I figured out that my main was fubar I chopped because I knew exactly what the (good) choices were AT THAT MOMENT. Things change--especially when you're out of control falling like a brick. If I can do it now I will.

[mjosparky 4]

katzas

***

Quote

But why do you assume that a mal from 12,500 is going to cost you your life?

Because it is safer to assume that and act now than to try something cool and risk another problem from preventing you from dealing with it later.

1-10-100 principal. The faster you fix a problem, the less energy it costs to fix the problem.

Lets say you chop from 12k.... Well you can always follow your main. Yes, you might lose the freebag.

Now lets say you decide to ride the wild ride. Soon you find yourself dizzy and starting to black out. Guess what? Now it might be too late to chop.

Why risk it?

Again, 2000 dollar vs my life. Easy to answer.

Precisely correct. You main is a mess and you're relatively ok with it AT THAT MOMENT. You have absolutely no idea what is going to happen IN THE NEXT MOMENT. The relatively gentle spin you're in could accelerate at any moment to a high g-force situation where you might not be able to do what you planned to do--that is, ride it down to a lower altitude and then chop. I've had two--and as soon as I figured out that my main was fubar I chopped because I knew exactly what the (good) choices were AT THAT MOMENT. Things change--especially when you're out of control falling like a brick. If I can do it now I will.

While a round canopy is a malfunction state will usually remain in that state. In almost all malfunction situations a ram air canopy will continue to get worse. When open they fly much better than rounds but getting them open is much more complicated.

There is a reason some jumpers are still around after over 30 years of jumping…..and starting with gear like this.

Sparky

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp55/mjosparky/Skydiving/FirstRigElsinore-1.jpg

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp55/mjosparky/Skydiving/4044101190_a6c31772ce_o.jpg

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[chuckakers 426]

katzas

***

Quote

But why do you assume that a mal from 12,500 is going to cost you your life?

Because it is safer to assume that and act now than to try something cool and risk another problem from preventing you from dealing with it later.

1-10-100 principal. The faster you fix a problem, the less energy it costs to fix the problem.

Lets say you chop from 12k.... Well you can always follow your main. Yes, you might lose the freebag.

Now lets say you decide to ride the wild ride. Soon you find yourself dizzy and starting to black out. Guess what? Now it might be too late to chop.

Why risk it?

Again, 2000 dollar vs my life. Easy to answer.

Precisely correct. You main is a mess and you're relatively ok with it AT THAT MOMENT. You have absolutely no idea what is going to happen IN THE NEXT MOMENT. The relatively gentle spin you're in could accelerate at any moment to a high g-force situation where you might not be able to do what you planned to do--that is, ride it down to a lower altitude and then chop. I've had two--and as soon as I figured out that my main was fubar I chopped because I knew exactly what the (good) choices were AT THAT MOMENT. Things change--especially when you're out of control falling like a brick. If I can do it now I will.

BOOM!

This is exactly what I've been preaching for years. We will never know how many incidents could have been avoided by jumpers not f*cking with mals that went from monkey business to ape-shit crazy.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[labrys 0]

Quote

What's wrong with chopping at 3k? I'm sure you've heard the phrase "altitude is your friend"!

Nothing AT ALL wrong with cutting away at 3K

I was just commenting on the suggestion that cutting away at 3K was *too low* Do you see the difference?

Owned by Remi #?

[kallend 2,112]

kallend

It seems we have a rash of fatalities at the beginning of every season

Be careful out there folks, especially if not current.

Bump.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Rick 67]

kallend

***

It seems we have a rash of fatalities at the beginning of every season

Be careful out there folks, especially if not current.

Bump.

wow I had forgotten about this thread. Maybe we should bump it in March next year as a reminder to everyone to be extra vigilant in the beginning of the season

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[danielcroft 2]

You'd think safety day would help.

[fcajump 164]

danielcroft

You'd think safety day would help.

Sadly it seems that Safety Day is an annual bump in the accident numbers.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think its because of the seminars and discussion. I suspect its simply that we've now got a single weekend that attracts the hibernating jumpers back out for the spring.

The safest thing that occurred at the safety day I went to (Chambersburg, PA) was that the jumpers all recognized the winds were too high and kept their gear in the cars. It was tempting for us to get the spring itch and try to will the winds into being OK... but there was way too much grey hair for that kind of thinking

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[chuckakers 426]

fcajump

[I suspect its simply that we've now got a single weekend that attracts the hibernating jumpers back out for the spring.

Assuming you're referring to the 3 recent fatalities, there's no correlation between those incidents and you comment. All three of the jumpers that died in the past 3 incidents were current and at least 2 of them - Jess and Walt - jumped in areas of the country where hibernating isn't even an issue (I don't know where the third jumper called home).

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX