Web Design

[JayhawkJumper 0]

I am going to create a webpage in the near future and for all the web designers our there, I have a question. I just want to make something simple for my photography business, advertisement and an online portfolio. I'm considering two programs, Frontpage and Dreamweaver. Which would you recomend, or maybe you would go with something different? What is the learning curve like on these two programs?

[kingbunky 3]

front page will do the job, but my own preference is for dreamweaver. both are WYSIWYG and both work more or less like any word processor, but it helps a lot to know wome basic html because you will more than likely end up editing the code directly.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[weegegirl 2]

Dreamweaver. And that's my final answer.

[AndyMan 7]

When I read your question, I saw something that looked like this:

"I am going to learn to skydive. Should I buy a Javelin or a Mirage?"

Learn to design webpages first, then pick a tool to make that task easier.

When I designed the webpages for Rubbermaid, LittleTikes, and Molson, my tool of choice was called Notepad, and comes free with every version of Windows.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[indyz 1]

Quote

When I read your question, I saw something that looked like this:

"I am going to learn to skydive. Should I buy a Javelin or a Mirage?"

I saw:

"I want to hit myself in the dick. Should I use a baseball bat or a crowbar?"

I think both options suck. Like Andy said, find a good free highlighting text editor (EditPlus 2 is a good one for Windows) and learn the basics by hand. Even if you end up using Dreamweaver, you'll need those skills to tweak the final product.

[AndyMan 7]

Actually, I lied. I didn't use notepad, I used Textpad.

I've also played with SlickEdit, but didn't like the GUI. I find I'm using Crimson Editor quite a bit now, too.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[sharpfive 0]

I would go with Dreamweaver. If you were just dabbling, FrontPage or Notepad would be fine, but you would eventually "move up" to something more robust. The learning curve is high with DW, but with the help of tutorial book and Macromedia's forum, you can have a basic site up in no time. It is a good idea, as some have said, to learn some basic HTML to help tweak the code now and then. Good luck with your site.

[Shotgun 1]

I personally prefer Dreamweaver... It's been a long time since I used Frontpage, but I seem to recall that it was always doing strange things and throwing in unnecessary code. But Frontpage is less expensive, and it might be easier to learn (especially if you use a lot of other Microsoft programs). Still, if you can afford it, I would say get Dreamweaver.

I think nowadays you can get by without knowing much html, but it'll make it a lot easier for you if you at least learn the basics. I would recommed this book to help you get started.

Both of those editors have a "design view" and a "code view", so it might help you to learn html if you check out the code it inserts every time you add or change something.

Good luck!

• Quote

[mailin 0]

Get yourself a good 'how to directory' and use notepad.

Seriously. Thats how I started, and now that I'm doing alot of .net - boy am I glad I started that way!

If you need the gui aspect of a visual editor frontpage would be easiest for you to use. I like visual editors if I find I'm doing alot of repetative stuff, but mostly stick to bones versions such as Crimson Editor, or my current (linux) favorite - bluefish.

I think I started with one of those 'learn in 24 hours' books which cover all the HTML you need to know - the other stuff.... well thats taken 6 years of night school

Good luck, feel free to PM with any questions
Jen

Arianna Frances

[shropshire 0]

If you were thinking of using Frontpage - then you'd be better using N++ (Notepad!) - less (much less) spaghetti html!

But really, IMHO go with Dreamweaver

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[theskydiveguy 0]

Anything by Microsoft is the DEVIL

Therefore you have no option but to use Dreamweaver!

~Jeff

[AggieDave 6]

If you HAVE to use a program, use Dreamweaver. Frontpage sucks, it sucks bad and it uses special extensions to do a lot of the "tricks", the extensions have to be installed on the server. They also crack the server's security fucking wide open, so Sys Admins generally don't put them on their servers.

Short answer: Use Notepad or some other simple text editor, your webpage will be better that way and it will take you less then 1/2 the time to do it. If you have to use something, use Dreamweaver.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mailin 0]

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They also crack the server's security fucking wide open, so Sys Admins generally don't put them on their servers.

Depends on the server its run on. MS2000Servers would have no problem running a tight ship w/ Frontpage if the admin knows half what s/he is supposed to know.

Agreed that bare bones is the best to start because not only do you learn tons, but the page will look EXACTLY like you want it to (browser compatability aside). But a beginners site... if a gui editor is needed, Frontpage will save you a TON of aggrevation - as you learn more code you'll find that Frontpage messes up alot of stuff and adds code where code need'nt be... then you're ready for notepad 24/7. IMO, Dreamweaver is great to start with if you already have a pretty firm place in desgn vs programming.

But with so many options out there (there are tons and tons), whatever you feel most comfortable with is the best place to start. If you want opinions on each program I belive download.com has an opinions poll/page with each link.

Good luck
Jen

Arianna Frances

[beej 0]

Pay someone to build it. :) If you're after a pro' appearance to reflect your work, then it's doubtful that it will look that way when you've finished.

....and if you do pay for someone, check their work first, there are some awful 'designers' out there!

----------------------------------------------------
If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)--

[sangiro 26]

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my tool of choice was called Notepad

Always amazes me when someone suggest to a newbie to use Notepad. Why?

I don't agree with that approach. The whole: "Suffer first by using a tool that really doesn't do much except force you to type a lot and then you'll be a purist and a really good HTML coder" approach does not carry at all.

I've never felt the need to code in TextPad (I do own it) Notepad or any other text editor. If I do decide to code in one of those tomorrow I will do just fine. I started in a bunch of free HTML editors and now use HomeSite. When I sit back and look around me I feel like I've learned quite a bit about HTML without torturing myself in the name of "coding purity"... or whatever!
Pick a good tool that will make it fun. I guarantee you'll learn a lot more if you actually enjoy the learning process.

Safe swoops
Sangiro

[mailin 0]

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I don't agree with that approach. The whole: "Suffer first by using a tool that really doesn't do much except force you to type a lot and then you'll be a purist and a really good HTML coder" approach does not carry at all.

hehe - ya, but... the |33+ programming squad need to keep it 'hard' for folks to get into... thus "ya, notepad is how you start".

If someone really wants to learn, IMO, its best to start that way. But when I had to throw something up in a day and a half at work, i did it all in Frontpage. Skipping lunch, I was able to do it. Ya, its loaded with alot of crap, but it works; and then i was able to turn it over to a computer novice to maintain. Thats why programs like that are good for beginners or someone with limited time. IMO of course.

Jen

Arianna Frances

[pilotdave 0]

I think its important for someone that doesn't know HTML at all to learn the basics in a text editor first. The graphical editors can do some funny stuff (at least the last time I used one which was a while ago) when you don't understand how they're translating what you want into html code. I think its fine to use an html specific text editor, that adds pretty colors to sections of code. Makes troubleshooting easier. But to dive in to web design without understanding how html works is a mistake.

I personally use a program called Note Tab Light which is similar to notepad but has a lot more features (99% of which i dont touch). Most of my editing now is php code which can't be done graphically anyway. I don't see an advantage to a fancy editor for what i do. When I designed http://www.umdskydiving.com, I used adobe imageready to split up the corner image and generate the page template. Then did the rest in notepad to tweak everything just the way I wanted it.

Dave

[AggieDave 6]

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Always amazes me when someone suggest to a newbie to use Notepad. Why?

It forces them to actually learn some of the scripting language. You know that HTML is simple, anyone that can read on a 1st grade level could do it, and I'm sure you know that even the top of the line editors sometimes really really screw up the HTML that you have to fix by hand.

Basically, the way I look at it is "bleed a little more now and your live will be much much easier later."

Also, it helps you understand things when you see them on other websites, so its easy to see somethings you like around the web and use those ideas to come up with your own original work that's "really l33t"

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AndyMan 7]

I don't care about "coding purity", nor do I care about people proving themselves before moving on.

I do assume that when somebody asks "what tool should I use?", they're really asking "how do I get started?"

I assume they're looking to learn something.

I love dreamweaver. I own it, and use it for certain tasks. It's not an easy tool to master, though. Recommending a beginner use Dreamweaver is like recommending somebody who's never used a digital camera go buy a copy of Photoshop - it's just too much tool. Unless the person happens to be really bright, they'll just get frustrated and say "screw it".

I never recommend anybody ever uses FrontPage. I just can't comprehend what Microsoft was thinking when they came up with that product. There's just too many things wrong with it.

Notepad or Textpad, and a good book on HTML is a very good primer for somebody trying to get started. Beginners will quickly see that coding HTML is really easy, they'll see results quickly and will start something they can easily add on to. Most importantly, they'll understand how their website is constructed, and when they want to do something their editor doesn't "wizardize", they'll know how to do it.

One editor I used to recommend for beginners was called "Hot Dog". It eventually "matured" to the point where it was trying to do too much, and got too confusing for a beginner to use. It eventually got bought by Allaire, I think - and disolved.

Speaking of Allaire, I also used to really like their HomeSite product. I thought it got discontinued, too. The last version I saw ended up being way too complicated for what it was supposed to be, and I haven't touched it since.

I can imagine a simple template based tool that teaches by example. Hot Dog used to be that. I just don't know what any of them are. Of course the downside to Templates is that sites start to look the same, but we're talking beginner tools. People can progress to more complicated tools later.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[sangiro 26]

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It forces them to actually learn some of the scripting language.

I have never used Notepad or any other "pure" text editor. I think I've learned a thing or two about HTML...

I do not subscribe to the point of view that this is the only way to learn. If you want to learn, do not pick a WYSIWYG editor. You will learn very little to nothing that way. You will also learn very little or nothing extra by actually typing out
in stead of clicking on a button to generate that tag for you. You still had to know that you needed a
tag there. You just didn't type it.

Pick the right tools for the job. Notepad is not the right tool to write HTML in and is in my opinion an unnecessary burden to place on a student for very little return.

If you really want to learn how to parachute you should start out on a round....

Safe swoops
Sangiro

[AggieDave 6]

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If you really want to learn how to parachute you should start out on a round....

Naw, if that was the case, then we would be talking about using a hex editor to really get down to the basics of web design...

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You still had to know that you needed a
tag there. You just didn't type it.

Sure, but how many people really truely do that? They get their editor, they click on the templet, insert a couple of those damned "under construction" animated gifs and upload it to the web. What have they learned.

My thought is, if you're forced to do it the hard way, then you'll be able to do it the easy way much more efficently.

HH, when you were in school, did the teacher show you the easiest way to do a derivative or did you have to do it the hard way and prove it before you could move on? Did you learn the concept better that way?

Thats my point.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."