airathanas 0 #1 April 12, 2010 At the dropzone that I work, we have just started training three new tandem packers, none of which are experienced jumpers. Me and the other tandem instructors had line twists. Both of the times that I had line twists, there were about 3-4 of them. I got out of them easily. We have not had a problem with line twists until this past weekend. I found out it was one packer who particular that was packing them. We had a talk and we tried to figure out what he was doing to cause them. I gave him some advice, but the truth is that I'm not 100% sure how someone can pack line twists on a tandem other than turning the bag before putting it in the container (which, as we all know, you're not supposed to do for that very reason). My question is, how DOES one pack line twists on a tandem? I packed one line twist only once on a tandem, and I hardly ever get them on my sport canopy. I have some ideas on my own what might cause them, but I thought I would ask the masses and see if my ideas match up. Thanks!http://3ringnecklace.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #2 April 12, 2010 It is very easy to pack line twists on any canopy. Start with risers un-even, then roll one side of the nose a lot and only roll the other side a little, make all the rubber bands on one side of the d-bag really tight (as in triple-wrapped) and leave the line stows loose on the other side, adjust the student's leg straps and MLWs unevenly and tell students to swing their legs off to one side during opening. It is amazing why we do not suffer line twists mere often! Rob Warner Strong Tandem Examiner FAA Master Rigger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amstalder 0 #3 April 12, 2010 Riggerbob said exactly what I was taught... Symmetry is huge. Make sure the new packers are making the risers and lines even before they stow the lines... A lot of times that gets over looked when teaching someone how to pack. I know when I first started packing tandems, it was very easy for me to overlook the amount of line on each side until I was already finished stowing the lines, so Id have to stretch it back out and try again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #4 April 12, 2010 Quote At the dropzone that I work, we have just started training three new tandem packers, none of which are experienced jumpers. What does jumping experience to do with packing experience? I don't see any connection. Please, enlighten me! Quote I gave him some advice, but the truth is that I'm not 100% sure how someone can pack line twists on a tandem other than turning the bag before putting it in the container (which, as we all know, you're not supposed to do for that very reason). Check it again. That should be the trick. Quote My question is, how DOES one pack line twists on a tandem? Wow! Tandem should be special. How can you pack a line twist on a 280-300 sqft student canopy? Packing a 350 sqft tandem isn't a big step that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airathanas 0 #5 April 12, 2010 What I meant by "inexperienced" was that it's not like they are skydivers who are already used to packing mains. They have very limited skydiving knowledge PERIOD. There - is that better?http://3ringnecklace.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #6 April 12, 2010 Quote What I meant by "inexperienced" was that it's not like they are skydivers who are already used to packing mains. They have very limited skydiving knowledge PERIOD. There - is that better? So, having a limited packing experience?I do pack tandems time to time. I prefer to have feedback about my work and ideas how it can be better. I'd take some time working with him. You may learn his tricks and teach yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #7 April 12, 2010 I would focus re-training on properly stowing the lines, and handling the bag before and during placement into the container. These are two areas where it would be easy for a new-to-parachutes pcaker to get things mixed up, and induce a 1/2 or full twist during the packjob. If you have video of the deployments, you can slow-mo them to see if the twists are there before the canopy gets out of the bag, just to narrow things down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #8 April 13, 2010 That's an easy one. Just spin the bag a few times before placing it in the container. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #9 April 13, 2010 Quote What I meant by "inexperienced" was that it's not like they are skydivers who are already used to packing mains. They have very limited skydiving knowledge PERIOD. There - is that better? Everyone knew what you meant. Well, almost everyone. You'll have to quit making your post so cryptic so that some of the slower people can understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrbiceps 0 #10 April 13, 2010 All i know is that i wouldnt want to be turning up to do my first tandem knowing that the guy who packed my canopy was "inexperienced" and had a "very limited skydiving knowledge" thats for sure. Sounds a bit dodgie to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 2 #11 April 13, 2010 Quote All i know is that i wouldnt want to be turning up to do my first tandem knowing that the guy who packed my canopy was "inexperienced" and had a "very limited skydiving knowledge" thats for sure. Understandable, but remember - a main must be packed by a certificated rigger, someone under the direct supervision of a rigger or the person intending to use the parachute system. A new packer has to learn and after a few practice packs he/she will learn live. Just like the rest of us learned. "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DoZ3r 0 #12 April 14, 2010 One does not pack twist... It's all in the body position... Word of a packer... If everything seems under control.. You're just not going fast enough..! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Titanman2789 0 #13 April 14, 2010 Quote One does not pack twist... It's all in the body position... Word of a packer... Thats what we tell our tandem instructors! Its such a rare occurrence that its OBVIOUSLY not our fault. We tell em that they should stop spinning on deployment, train their students better, etc. Thats my word and I'm stickin to it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DoZ3r 0 #14 April 14, 2010 Quote Quote One does not pack twist... It's all in the body position... Word of a packer... Thats what we tell our tandem instructors! Its such a rare occurrence that its OBVIOUSLY not our fault. We tell em that they should stop spinning on deployment, train their students better, etc. Thats my word and I'm stickin to it! Same here mate... We have a tdm-master here with the right mentality (that's not how you spell it, right..) "You shouldn't complain about your opening.. Be happy you got one.."If everything seems under control.. You're just not going fast enough..! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airathanas 0 #15 April 15, 2010 Body position...hmmm...like keeping a perfectly straight heading on opening and still getting line twists? Yeah, I can see what you mean... Body position, my ass. I understand that line twists happen and they are not a big deal. I didn't lay into the guy, but rather told him that since this is happening again and again, there is consistent problem here. I am trying to prevent a cutaway here. I'm not afraid of cutaways; but when they do happen, that is one rig that we can't use for the rest of the weekend. I am trying to be preventative and pro-active about the situation. http://3ringnecklace.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #16 April 15, 2010 Quote Body position...hmmm...like keeping a perfectly straight heading on opening and still getting line twists? Yeah, I can see what you mean... Body position, my ass. I understand that line twists happen and they are not a big deal. I didn't lay into the guy, but rather told him that since this is happening again and again, there is consistent problem here. I am trying to prevent a cutaway here. I'm not afraid of cutaways; but when they do happen, that is one rig that we can't use for the rest of the weekend. I am trying to be preventative and pro-active about the situation. A line twist usually happening with a slow opening. Make up your mind! Hard opening of line-twist? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DoZ3r 0 #17 April 15, 2010 Quote Body position...hmmm...like keeping a perfectly straight heading on opening and still getting line twists? Yeah, I can see what you mean... Body position, my ass. I understand that line twists happen and they are not a big deal. I didn't lay into the guy, but rather told him that since this is happening again and again, there is consistent problem here. I am trying to prevent a cutaway here. I'm not afraid of cutaways; but when they do happen, that is one rig that we can't use for the rest of the weekend. I am trying to be preventative and pro-active about the situation. A packing cord in the biggest rings while flaking might do the trick... Otherwise.. Is it an older canopy? We had a couple of canopies here that got chopped "often", then relined and the twisting problem was gone..If everything seems under control.. You're just not going fast enough..! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver30960 0 #18 April 16, 2010 QuoteAll i know is that i wouldnt want to be turning up to do my first tandem knowing that the guy who packed my canopy was "inexperienced" and had a "very limited skydiving knowledge" thats for sure. Sounds a bit dodgie to me. This was my thought. "Back in my day..." (Damn, that makes me sound even older than I am) I paid for my first few years of jumping by packing. The guys doing the tandem jumping at my DZ were militant about all tandem packing being done by the book: that is, by either a TI or a senior rigger. Even though I had hundreds of sport and student pack jobs, they would not let me pack tandems. I spent a winter repacking reserves, sewing patches, and got my senior rigger ticket, mostly just so I could pack tandems. NOW we have a situation where people who have never jumped (other than maybe a tandem or two themselves) are packing tandems. You can say "the times, they are a changin'." I say, this is one example of how we're selling our souls and the lives of our friends and students in the name of making a buck. You can say "jumping experience doesn't mean they would be a better packer." I say BS: a skydiver has a better understanding of how the systems work and what's at stake. Let the non-jumpers pack sport mains. There will be plenty of business for them. Let the experienced packers pack the tandems. Elvisio "happier every day that I quit tandems" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver30960 0 #19 April 16, 2010 Quote I'm not afraid of cutaways; but when they do happen, that is one rig that we can't use for the rest of the weekend. Dude, don't worry about not sounding manly enough. I'll say it: cutaways scare the hell out of me. I've only had two in 1500+ jumps, none on tandems, but they still worry me. We call them the Plan B handles, but the thing is most of us don't wear a Plan C. Any time you have to use your last possible means of salvation, that's a scary thing. Reserves CAN fail; if you need it then USE IT but whenever possible, keep it in the bag. Elvisio "secure" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #20 April 16, 2010 Quote You can say "the times, they are a changin'." I say, this is one example of how we're selling our souls and the lives of our friends and students in the name of making a buck. Most of the labor who worked on your rig has no skydiving experience. Why do you still trust your rig? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fanya 3 #21 April 16, 2010 I can personally say that most of my line twists came from sloppy stows. After my stows got cleaned up I was still getting them here and there. Most those I suspect were being caused by over rolling the tail, every since I have messed with the tail less I have been packing less line twists. Too big of stows can cause riser slaps too I've found out recently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airathanas 0 #22 April 16, 2010 Quote Dude, don't worry about not sounding manly enough. Actually, I'm a woman, so I don't worry about sounding manly enough. We have a packer who has the most experience packing tandems who is not a certified jumper. He packs great openings every time. Now that we have the new packers, the other tandem instructors and I thought it was weird that all of a sudden we are getting line twists. Same canopy, different packer, which resulted in line twists. Something is not right here. I appreciate your support Elvisio, and yes I don't want to WAIT until I need to use Plan B. If there is anything I can do about it now- I WILL!!!http://3ringnecklace.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propacker 0 #23 April 16, 2010 we used to have line twists quite often and found that if the distance between the last stow to the end of the risers was too short - it would induce line twists. we started leaving about 1.5 feet distance and that pretty much fixed up the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #24 April 16, 2010 QuoteAll i know is that i wouldnt want to be turning up to do my first tandem knowing that the guy who packed my canopy was "inexperienced" and had a "very limited skydiving knowledge" thats for sure. Sounds a bit dodgie to me. I was taught to pack tandems before I did my first jump. I was on a commercial skydiving diploma course and packing was the very first thing we learned, and the weather was shit for the forst month... If one is not only told 'how' to pack but 'WHY" each process is done, then the chances are they will take more attention to symmetry and precison. Most people just teach them 'how' to pack and exclude the why part. And we all know tandem linetwists are most often caused by bad body position and the inability to fly the opening. Hell I get 1 or 2 linetwists (out of linestretch) all the time during the snivel but by the time the slider comes down they are gone. This is not always possible but most of the time It is."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #25 April 16, 2010 Quote we used to have line twists quite often and found that if the distance between the last stow to the end of the risers was too short - it would induce line twists. we started leaving about 1.5 feet distance and that pretty much fixed up the problem. I concur!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
