chopchop 0 #51 July 1, 2004 Quote If he violated FAR's thats not really an issue is it? Packing it slider down renders the whole demonstration mute. Removing the slider increased its opening speed dramatically and is unrealistic compared to a real reserve opening. If said jumper would have had a High speed mal the opening of the reserve due to the skyhook cutaway would have probally caused severe damage to the jumper and the gear. Yup.. or if the skyhook would have failed.. As it is, I just think it is a nice shot of something working properly. The fact that it is so close to the ground makes it freaky. I assume he broke some rules but I don't really care. I'm glad he didn't burn in in front of me. I can't vouch for his sanity or intelligence. I can only say that I wouldn't do it. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #52 July 1, 2004 Quote Still in violation. who cares?? really, it's done, over with, and i'm sure the dude was told not to do it again. just leave it alone, we all know it was stupid, cool, but stupid. lata Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #53 July 1, 2004 An untucked tuck tab is not an open container. Containers these days are closed with some combination of closing loops and either ripcords or closing pins. Removal of said ripcords or closing pins from the closing loops make for open containers. I understand your point Ron. You're arguing that he should have deployed the parachute that he intended to land by 2000 feet. I mostly agree with you, but think such a requirement would belong in the intentional cutaway BSR, not the "opening altitudes" BSR. I'm also wondering whether there is a specific reason such a stipulation is not present there. In any case, I don't need to call USPA and ask them what they meant. In rule-writing as in everything, it's not what you mean to say that matters, it's what you actually say. USPA actually said he had to have an open container by 2000 feet. It's entirely possible that he did. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #54 July 1, 2004 Quote As a former DZO, could I ask that you maybe consider the "impact" (chosen on purpose) that these type incidents ("demonstrations") have on business when they go bad... Since people were ready with cameras to catch the action, I'm gonna take a guess that the DZO (or S&TA, or instructors, or whatever) knew he was going to do this. It was a stunt. It wasn't some dumbass move to show off. It was really freaking dangerous, but he took the risk. I understand that when a tandem goes in, it could put a DZ out of business. But if this guy had died, there'd be all kinds of quotes in the paper the next day about how his incredibly dangerous stunt jump went wrong. Heck, might even increase tandem traffic. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #55 July 1, 2004 Since everyone is so fired up about the one guy in the picture.. I thought I should mention that there were in fact 2 jumpers doing this at the same time. The other one was a little farther away from us but at the same altitude.. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #56 July 1, 2004 Quote It's essentially a slider down/off jump with some extra airspeed and a GIANT pilot chute. 200' is no problem! Maybe not a good example to be giving to people, though -- "Hey, I can chop at 200' if I have a Skyhook!". Antilock brakes have a similar problem - increasing accidents caused by people being stupid because they "know" they have equipment to make it all better. Still, I'd take a skyhook. I just wouldn't be cutting it away at 250 feet. Unless I was being paid to do stupid stuff and I really liked it, or something. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jb092 0 #57 July 1, 2004 I was there and you said there was a short canopy ride?? His canopy wasn't even pressurized when he hit. What could possibly go wrong? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #58 July 1, 2004 Mr.Todek, You are arguing just to argue or are just plain foolish. Attitude's like this and actions like this are what end in disaster and cause the sport severe issue's. You would most likely argue that jumping over burning cars is a wise move ! Find someone with 12,000 jumps or more and ask them why they still are around and enjoying what they do ! Between idiots and pussy lawsuits and a generation of folks where "f@#$$g awesome" is said every 30 seconds, we are headed for an avation nightmare. The body count is just going to get worse, not better. Mr. Todek, I am writing your name in my logbook,i'll check in a couple of years to see if you are still with us. wallysmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #59 July 1, 2004 tehehe... yeah.. well, I did say short.. I'll watch the video again tonight and time the canopy ride.. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taylor610 0 #60 July 1, 2004 Quote But if this guy had died, there'd be all kinds of quotes in the paper the next day about how his incredibly dangerous stunt jump went wrong. Heck, might even increase tandem traffic. We can debate all day as to whether or not "There is no such thing as bad advertisement", but I can tell you from experience, there are "bad" phone calls to make. I couldn't imagine calling someone's parents/spouse/children as a DZO and/or S&TA (or the USPA) and saying, yeah, I knew he was going to do this "stunt". No, no way, and if the S&TA and/or DZO KNEW he was doing this and didn't stop it, then shame on him/her. If they didn't ground the people involved after this incident, shame on them again. Dave, I have read probably most of your posts, and believe you are a intelligent person, but without question, the people that did this were showing off. They were showing off there "gear" and how well it works, AND they were showing off themselves as being the most "extreme" jumper there. They were drawing attention to themselves as much as anything, and anyway you look at it, that is showing off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #61 July 1, 2004 Quote Who cares if he violated a BSR? And USPA says self-policing/self-regulating works! Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #62 July 1, 2004 Quote who cares?? really, it's done, over with, and i'm sure the dude was told not to do it again. just leave it alone, we all know it was stupid, cool, but stupid. Cause when you glamorize it you encourage others to do stupid stuff "As long as its cool""No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #63 July 1, 2004 Quote I can't believe people are so hung up on a possible violation and not amazed that the demonstration. Look, I admire the skyhook. That picture of Aviatrr is on the RWS website, and I've flown behind two of those tertiary deployments, eg; the pictures. But, it is essentially a test-pilot kind of thing. The main is a giant POS, I think it's an old PD210 or something, and the reserve is something fairly docile as well, if its the same setup that Mike and Timmae jumped. The secondary canopy, the "first reserve" is not packed and sealed, necessarily, by a rigger. The "last reserve" the belly wart, is. So if that "first reserve" malfunctions at opening at 250 feet, it takes some human timeframe to figure out its a malfunction and not a problem, and the jumper then has to defeat his muscle memory training in getting that belly reserve out. A very big fucking deal when stressed. Sorry about the language, but this is like a guy who regularly trains with a semi automatic pistol going into a firefight with a revolver on purpose . The hands need to move without thought. That only happens through practice. The muscle memory necessary to effectively cutaway the "first reserve" and effectively deploy the belly reserve is just not going to be there, but for a handfull of jumpers who have hundreds of tertiary deployments. I think a 250 foot high speed malfunction opening coupled with one whiffed attempt to cutaway and deploy the reserve where the hands have been trained to reach when faced with that choice could very easily result in catastrophe. I really couldn't give a shiite about whether it pisses off anybody at USPA or the FAA, or AARP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #64 July 1, 2004 Quote I can't believe people are so hung up on a possible violation and not amazed that the demonstration. I don't know who's idea it was, but it's a heck of an advertisement for the skyhook if you ask me!Personally, I have no problem with the stunt (edit: though the DZO would tear a new asshole into anyone that did this at my DZ). But it's definitely not an advertisement for the Skyhook, because this is NOT a regular usage of the device."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #65 July 1, 2004 Quote I think a 250 foot high speed malfunction opening coupled with one whiffed attempt to cutaway and deploy the reserve where the hands have been trained to reach when faced with that choice could very easily result in catastrophe.From 250', it's never really going to get that high speed. "¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #66 July 1, 2004 Quote Mr.Todek, You are arguing just to argue Possibly, but let's keep track of WHAT I'm arguing...that he didn't necessarily break any BSRs or FARs. That's the ONLY thing I've argued. Quote or are just plain foolish. Not an ailment I often suffer. Quote Attitude's like this and actions like this are what end in disaster and cause the sport severe issue's. You would most likely argue that jumping over burning cars is a wise move ! I have not once called this jump "wise" or made any other reference to its advisability. I could possibly be convinced that it was safer than a 250 foot BASE jump but that's about as far as I could see that discussion going. Quote Find someone with 12,000 jumps or more and ask them why they still are around and enjoying what they do ! I just spent a week with such a person while getting a new rating. I got some valuable insight into just what you're talking about during that process. Both of my DZO's have over 40 years in sport and I have several friends with over 30 years in sport. I ask for their viewpoints all the time. Quote Between idiots and pussy lawsuits and a generation of folks where "f@#$$g awesome" is said every 30 seconds, we are headed for an avation nightmare. The body count is just going to get worse, not better. I'm not sure of the relevance of this to anything I've said in this thread. I did not personally make this jump, advise anyone on how to make this jump, call this jump "f@#$$g awesome", or in any other way condone this jump. I simply said that it's possible that no BSRs or FARs were violated. Quote Mr. Todek, I am writing your name in my logbook,i'll check in a couple of years to see if you are still with us. wally Well at least spell it right! I certainly hope to see you then. Blue skies, Dave Todak S&TA 03/05"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #67 July 1, 2004 Quote Quote Sure it didn't happen at the Outback Steak House? Positive.. because.. Nothing ever happens at the Outback Steakhouse.. Duh! as a plankholder who spent 5 years bartending at 3 different Outbacks, and a dedicated patron (part time reveiwer) for the 8 years since I completely disagree with this statement... LOTS of very very interesting things happen at Outback Steakhouse....we just kill anyone that talks about it... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #68 July 1, 2004 Quote LOTS of very very interesting things happen at Outback Steakhouse....we just kill anyone that talks about it... Pshew! Thanks for lightening things up in here, Zen.. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyinNover 0 #69 July 1, 2004 Quote wanna guess how close? I was at X-Keys that day. Father's Day, wasn't it? I heard it was 150 feet. I didn't see it, but I did hear the big KLANG of his brass balls, though. Did you see Will swooping the demo tent? Sweeeet ---Nover Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #70 July 1, 2004 to make an OT post, i have to agree with both sides, beyond the "wow this gear really works" fascination, it was a pretty stupid demonstration.. I've some body armor i trust my life to as well, but i'm not about to let you empty a clip at me while wearing just it to demonstrate how 'cool' it is... but i also agree with livindive...it might have violated the intent of the BSR's but the letter is the only thing that really matters,if there were any enforceable action you could take in the first place... if you dont think the letter fits the intent then the SIM needs to be changed......____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kramer 0 #71 July 1, 2004 Sorry...what's a skyhook? (I know it's Relative Workshop's new thing...but I don't really know how it works...thanks) The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #72 July 1, 2004 Quote Quote wanna guess how close? I was at X-Keys that day. Father's Day, wasn't it? I heard it was 150 feet. I didn't see it, but I did hear the big KLANG of his brass balls, though. Did you see Will swooping the demo tent? Sweeeet ---Nover I din't notice that.. 'course I was pretty busy doing a few jumps myself.. speaking of courses.. er.. golf courses.. nice fairway on the first hole on that course near the dz.. not that I swooped it or anything.. or did I? chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mouth 0 #73 July 1, 2004 Quote Too risky for me. What he said. OMG, that is just crazy. What point was he trying to prove? He could have proved it worked at 3000 with video even...geez. I'm with Derek, THINK. -- Hot Mama At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #74 July 1, 2004 Quote I'm with Derek, THINK. But it hurts so much more when you don't!I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mouth 0 #75 July 1, 2004 Quote Quote I'm with Derek, THINK. But it hurts so much more when you don't! Exactly....if he did it just to show people then a video would have worked. I personally think it was to show how "bad" he was. Personally I think it was stupid. Of course that is my opinion and you all could care less, but honestly WHAT WAS THE POINT? -- Hot Mama At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
