"Grim Rigger" - Blue Skies Magazine

[riggerpaul 1]

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When I teach finger-trapping, I teach from the Para-Kit manual or the 2005 FAA manual (written by Sandy Reid) or Poynter's (Volume 2, page 350). All say to scissors cut the end of the "trapped line" at a shallow angle.

Whether you taper cut the line with scissors or a razor is a minor point, because the end result is the same: a gentle transition from two thicknesses of line to one thickness, ergo no "stress riser."

Rob, thanks for your response, and especially for telling us the location in the manual.

Incidentally, I don't think I even have a scissor that will cut Spectra at a shallow angle.

Anyway, when Poynter says "scissor cut", can we all agree that he means "not hot knifed"? There is a notation on the illustration on page 350 of Poynter's Parachute Manual Volume II, that says,

"In all finger-traps, it is very important that the end of the inner line be trimmed with as long a taper as possible. Trim with a scissor, not with a hot knife."

(The undeline actually comes from Poynter.)

Jerry, Poynter used the word "all".

I take that to mean that this is the way it must be done.

[riggerpaul 1]

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You post like I disagree with you that the sharp shit should be cut off. I don't, I agree with you

Thanks. I appreciate your saying so. Really.

So what am I missing about what Jerry said?

[mark 107]

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< lots of stuff snipped >
. . .when Poynter says. . .
< more stuff snipped >
I take that to mean that this is the way it must be done.

I hope my snips haven't taken your words out of context.

Poynter has been a generally accepted source for many years, but it is neither error-free nor up-to-date. The same can be said for the Parachute Rigger Handbook.

If you look in Poynter, the reference to cutting with a scissors is in preparation for fingertrapping. If you follow his instructions, you will be screwing your fingertrapping needle onto a scissor-cut line.

He also writes that the bartack should be close to the formed loop. The diagram doesn't match the text. And Icarus does not bartack close to the formed loop the way PD does. Does that mean Icarus is doing it wrong?

Mark

[rushmc 23]

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You post like I disagree with you that the sharp shit should be cut off. I don't, I agree with you

Thanks. I appreciate your saying so. Really.

So what am I missing about what Jerry said?

Poynter, while the best resource in the library, does not over rule manufacturers manuals. Hence the word smithing I think Jerry was referring too

When it comes to the gov and the FAA, the manuals would be the final source. They (the manuals) do not mention what we are talking about. Minor point? No, not really.
I can almost bet he does agree with the no hot knifing of finger trapped lines.

Again, as I stated in my PM to you. Had he and you been sitting across the table with each other, the discussion would of ended quickly and amicably.

Ideas and thoughts are hard to express (especially for me) using a keyboard

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[BrianM 1]

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I don't recall a manual telling me to remove my molar strap after bagging the reserve, so I guess that is optional too? I can just go ahead and leave it in place, since they didn't say otherwise, right?

I think the "count your tools" statement in most if not all manuals might cover that

Some manuals don't say to count your tools, so I guess that is optional. The manuals that do say to count your tools don't say to remove them from the rig - it just says to count them - so I guess removing them is still optional.

Yes, I'm being silly. That's my point. At some point the manual has to assume that the rigger has a clue. No matter how much detail you put in the manual, I could still sit here and pick out little details that weren't spelled out. Just how pedantic do we really need to be?

By the way, putting your reply inline with the quoted text makes it difficult to see what you've added. The reply tags make it a lot easier.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[rushmc 23]

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I don't recall a manual telling me to remove my molar strap after bagging the reserve, so I guess that is optional too? I can just go ahead and leave it in place, since they didn't say otherwise, right?

I think the "count your tools" statement in most if not all manuals might cover that

Some manuals don't say to count your tools, so I guess that is optional. The manuals that do say to count your tools don't say to remove them from the rig - it just says to count them - so I guess removing them is still optional.

Yes, I'm being silly. That's my point. At some point the manual has to assume that the rigger has a clue. No matter how much detail you put in the manual, I could still sit here and pick out little details that weren't spelled out. Just how pedantic do we really need to be?

By the way, putting your reply inline with the quoted text makes it difficult to see what you've added. The reply tags make it a lot easier.

No doubt the rigger has to have a clue. Some things should become "instinct" when it comes to rigging too.

In some ways here however, Jerry's point is made.

A beer over a end of the fire is where this should be talked about (not saying here is not OK either) as the understanding would come quick and it would be much more fun

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[riggerpaul 1]

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< lots of stuff snipped >
. . .when Poynter says. . .
< more stuff snipped >
I take that to mean that this is the way it must be done.

I hope my snips haven't taken your words out of context.

Poynter has been a generally accepted source for many years, but it is neither error-free nor up-to-date. The same can be said for the Parachute Rigger Handbook.

If you look in Poynter, the reference to cutting with a scissors is in preparation for fingertrapping. If you follow his instructions, you will be screwing your fingertrapping needle onto a scissor-cut line.

He also writes that the bartack should be close to the formed loop. The diagram doesn't match the text. And Icarus does not bartack close to the formed loop the way PD does. Does that mean Icarus is doing it wrong?

Mark

Hi Mark,

No problem with your snips.

If we really want to be picky about what I said, then I will also point out that what I said was that I was taught that I must do what I said. I never claimed to be an expert, I said what I was taught. I never said that other ways were wrong. I only said what I was taught. And my teacher said "must", so I pass that along when I tell you about it.

We can argue about whether it was correct for my teacher to teach me "must", but that gets rather far from the original point of the discussion.

What I was taught has ample support from recognized experts as an acceptable way to do it. That doesn't mean it is the only way. Still, though there may be other acceptable ways to do it, if I do it the way I was taught, I don't think anyone will ever say it is an unacceptable finger-trapped loop, any more than I would say that the finger-traps on the Icarus lines are wrong or unacceptable.

riggerrob said he found a finger-trap with a hard melted end left inside. I said that I was taught never to do that.

Regardless of what other particulars might be taught, I still hope that whoever is doing the teaching is clear that leaving a hard, possibly sharp, melted end in the line is wrong. Just because there may be several or even many ways to do it right does not mean that leaving such an end in the line is not, in fact, wrong.

Regardless of the wording, the original point in response to Jerry's post was that there is a whole lot of knowledge that is not written down, but is still passed on. Sure, I can learn to do something one way, and you can learn to do it another, and neither may be wrong. But each of us should have been taught some acceptable way to do the things we do. So having a particular method written in every manual that needs us to exercise our skills should not be necessary.

[riggerrob 643]

" ... At some point the manual has to assume that the rigger has a clue. ...."

........................................................................

Most reserve manuals start with the assumption that reserves will only be assembled by "FAA Senior Rigger, CSPA Rigger A or foreign equivalent ..."

So the author has to assume a basic level of competence. That assumption includes assuming that the rigger learned the basics of finger-trapping before earning the license. Taper-cutting finger-trapped lines is on the CSPA Rigger A written exam.