eeneR 3 #26 August 27, 2004 QuoteRenee - I'm not singling you out, but as was mentioned before - if they go back to judge where they were wrong in one direction - they need to consider ALL of the judging mistakes involved Understood. and I agree. I was not aware of the other "issues" My point is this. Everyone knows that there was a lot of whining going on because of the booboo...it would have made Hamm look like the bigger man to hand it over. Like I said, He as well as the rest of the world knows what he did, and how he performed. This is more of a sportsmanship thing. I'm not arguing who scored what, im making the statement that instead of both countries acting like 2 year olds pointing fingers, it would have been a sign of sportsmanship. But like them we are stomping our feet crying...pointing fingers. But nowadays there doesnt seem to be much sportsmanship in sports anymore, it is all about endorsements and who can make the bigger buck...even in the olympics. I have become somewhat annoyed with where amature sports has gone...its not amateur, these are professionals now.She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway." eeneR TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #27 August 27, 2004 Quote sportmanship. Of course, if Hamm won by the rules and the Koreans protest, maybe the Koreans should show sportsmanship and leave it be or even acknowledge the unscored error penalty makes it a moot point at best. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #28 August 27, 2004 This has to be the worst Olympics I have seen for judging errors and controversy.....maybe its the fault of the organisers or maybe its just a sign of the times we live in. Personally I feel so so sad for some of these athletes....even if they win to be asked to return a medal because of a judges bad decision must really really hurt.....on the flip side of that....not winning a medal because of a missed 'call' must be just as hard.......either way...that gold medal just cant be the same around your neck in either circumstance. As an aside I was personally disgusted yesterday in the mens 200M when the 'local' crowd brayed and booed the 'athletes who had qualified legit' simply becuase their 'own' Grrek Hero had been ousted as an alledged drug cheat and liar......shame on you Athens crowd...shame on you Kudos to the American athlete who just stood there and laughed it off....abso best response to such biased and unfair behavoir Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #29 August 27, 2004 I beg to differ. Sportsmanship is not about giving away something you worked your whole life to earn. Sportsmanship is accepting the call, shaking hands and moving on. Sportsmanship would be the Korean shutting up and going home. Whining is not sportsmanship! -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #30 August 27, 2004 QuoteI beg to differ. Sportsmanship is not about giving away something you worked your whole life to earn. Sportsmanship is accepting the call, shaking hands and moving on. Sportsmanship would be the Korean shutting up and going home. Whining is not sportsmanship! i wonder how many americans would be screaming for "sportsmanship" if the situation were reversed???____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #31 August 27, 2004 Quotei wonder how many americans would be screaming for "sportsmanship" if the situation were reversed??? A better question is how many times has it happened in the past? I guess we can agree about paying off judges. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #32 August 27, 2004 Are you trying to send this to Speaker's Corner? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eeneR 3 #33 August 27, 2004 QuoteSportsmanship is accepting the call, shaking hands and moving on. Sportsmanship would be the Korean shutting up and going home. Whining is not sportsmanship! I never said that the Koreans behavior showed that of sportsmanship either. Everyone knows that, and weather Hamm has the medal or the Koreans we do know who performed the best. There are quite a few athletes that stand out because of there actions, as well as there performance. But in retaliation to the Koreans whining...so are we. That was my point. We are not sucking it up and going by what the IOC wants, now we are crying too.She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway." eeneR TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigra 0 #34 August 27, 2004 If Paul Hamm wasn't an American, I don't think he'd be placed in this situation to begin with. He's being expected to be a Good Will Ambassador for our country since no one likes Americans anymore! I think that's a tough job for someone his age! Compare this to the figure skating scandal a few years ago. Of course in that case, there was bribery and corruption involved, not just "mistakes", but no one asked the Russians to give up their gold which they CLEARLY had not earned, and they did not offer. Instead, a second gold medal was awarded days later to the rightful winners, the Canadians. In this case, it really isn't clear that the other guy would have won. To be fair, he might not have been on the podium at all if the leading Romanian, Japanese and Chinese gymnasts hadn't made major mistakes, AND the other American also had a shot at a medal but his rings routine was given a lower start value than it had been in the past. OK so I'm rambling, but I call bull shit on this! They won't "officially" do anything, but still, they go to the press and publicly suggest Paul Hamm give up his medal, making him look like an asshole if he doesn't. Its not fair! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #35 August 27, 2004 actually who ever advised them to 'hold' their protest when they quietly asked, till afterwards should be shot... if it happened to be one of the panel judges the medal should certainly be changed...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #36 August 27, 2004 two gold medals is just stupid... just because justice was not done then does not mean it should not be now...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eeneR 3 #37 August 27, 2004 Quoteactually who ever advised them to 'hold' their protest when they quietly asked, till afterwards should be shot... if it happened to be one of the panel judges the medal should certainly be changed... I think this person should definaly be shot...as an example for future judges...if in fact it he/she was on the panel. hell for that matter, show the judges they had better get there shit together! All and all this was not a little booboo...this was a major fuck up period.She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway." eeneR TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #38 August 27, 2004 So, should the Romanian girl stripped of the gold for an allergy medication from the team doctor get hers back and everyone step down a peg too? -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #39 August 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteSportsmanship is accepting the call, shaking hands and moving on. Sportsmanship would be the Korean shutting up and going home. Whining is not sportsmanship! I never said that the Koreans behavior showed that of sportsmanship either. Everyone knows that, and weather Hamm has the medal or the Koreans we do know who performed the best. There are quite a few athletes that stand out because of there actions, as well as there performance. But in retaliation to the Koreans whining...so are we. That was my point. We are not sucking it up and going by what the IOC wants, now we are crying too. Well, who was that then Renee - We are hearing both sides - There is the discrepancy that would let the Korean win and then there is the discrepancy that would disqualify him completely from the medal race all together.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #40 August 27, 2004 Medals should be awarded on performance. Positive tests for over the counter allergy medicines certainly shouldnt disqualify you, or affect the results.... Intent is important in 'doping' cases..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #41 August 27, 2004 Quote There is the discrepancy that would let the Korean win and then there is the discrepancy that would disqualify him completely from the medal race all together. the problem was that one mistake was made by 2 judges (and a third who likely didnt even LOOK at the starting score as there was no disagreement between the other two) the other 'mistakes' were missed by the ENTIRE judging panel....exactly how significant could they be if EVERY judge missed them??____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #42 August 27, 2004 QuoteQuote There is the discrepancy that would let the Korean win and then there is the discrepancy that would disqualify him completely from the medal race all together. the problem was that one mistake was made by 2 judges (and a third who likely didnt even LOOK at the starting score as there was no disagreement between the other two) the other 'mistakes' were missed by the ENTIRE judging panel....exactly how significant could they be if EVERY judge missed them?? I don't know - I'm not a judge - but - obviously if you could see it after the fact then it was notable.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #43 August 27, 2004 Quotei wonder how many americans would be screaming for "sportsmanship" if the situation were reversed??? Very few I suspect.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigra 0 #44 August 27, 2004 In a case of obvious and appalling corruption, a second gold medal was awarded-none was taken away. Why? Maybe because the athletes weren't the guilty parties! Was it right? Who knows, but it seemed to be the most "fair" way to handle it at the time. This case isn't anywhere near as clear cut, but an innocent athlete is still being penalized. I personally think it sucks and its wrong to put a young athlete OF ANY NATION in this position. Paul Hamm's medal is unfortunately already tarnished. And he has publicly stated that if he was officially asked to give up his meal, he would. The spineless way the Olympic officials are handling this is disgusting. But I guess that's just the way this whole Olympics has been! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eeneR 3 #45 August 27, 2004 QuoteI don't know - I'm not a judge - but - obviously if you could see it after the fact then it was notable. Neither am I...my .02 Hamm showed strength coming back from his mistakes. but that is my opinion. My statement as what WE thought who the winner was is truly subjective. Gymnatics is not like track and field or swimming. There is no set positive winner, it is interpretation of rules. There is no "finish line" yes there are set requirements, but above that it is based on artistic and technical merit, which in general is based on ones "opinion" Everyone has who they think were the star athletes in these games, no matter if they got a medal or not. Edited to add: Yes I have competed in both Track and Field in H.S. and Gymnastics as a kid and as an adult...and have medals from both.She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway." eeneR TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #46 August 27, 2004 QuoteQuotePersonally, I think he should give it back. It'll always be tarnished... Then again, rules are rules, and the rules should be abided by. you can win 'by the rules' and you can win by merit... personally i'd rather earn my own medal than win on a technicality... I've declined points in fencing when i knew my attack was out of time but the director missed it (i know it doesn’t happen at the Olympic level where you are 'fencing to the directors judging style' quite often) but for me it is about honorable competition and weighing my skills against those of my opponent... Bravo. And I've taken that double-bogey in golf even though nobody saw me duff it. I'm with you on this. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #47 August 27, 2004 I think it would be unfair to ask Hamm to give up his gold medal. The mistake was not his fault. I also think it would be equally unfair for the South Korean to not be awarded one. He might have won otherwise. I think they should have to share the gold. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #48 August 27, 2004 I think we need to replay the Superbowl because there were some errors by the referees. Then again, why stop there? I think a lot of unsportmanslike little league arguments could be prevented if there was a camera to second guess the umpire. Yeah, let's make every sporting event subject to video review. Then, we'll have sportsmanship. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sabr190 0 #49 August 27, 2004 Yeah good idea! They can have a DMZ drawn right down the middle of the coin The Koreans would be used that "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #50 August 27, 2004 obviously if the korea coaches questioned it at the time it occured, but were told to hold off, it didnt require any video review to determine a mistake had been made.... nice 'slippery slope' you painted there...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
