Non-Injury AFF3 premature brake release

[SkyHigh04 0]

I didn't think this was signifigant enough for the Incidents thread and I mentioned it in my AFF thread BUT I thought a separate thread so that maybe others who had something similar could comment...
So my AFF 3 went good-was my release dive and felt awesome. Pulled by 4,000 and right as my canopy opens I look up about to do my check when I start spinning right and it was only getting faster. I didn't want to mess with too much because I was afraid it might make things worse. I pulled with my risers and heard on the radio to turn left, this was before he knew i had a problem, and i'm screaming "I CANT!! I CANT STOP SPINNING!" and I looked at my alti...about right under 3k, was going to cut away but then i heard on th radio that he could see i was in a situation and told me to flare the parachute so I did and suddenly I was flying normal. It scared me but I kept my cool and alti aware for the most part. I don't blame anyone except me for not trying to flare earlier but like I said, I didnt know what was wrong and didn't want to make things worse. That's my story and it can be confirmed by peregrinerose...Live and learn.
Anyone have something similar while a student?

"...And once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been, and there you long to return..." - Leonardo da Vinci

[SkyHigh04 0]

They were velcro toggles and the whole thing gave me a scare but looking back, I smack myself for not realizing what the problem was.

"...And once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been, and there you long to return..." - Leonardo da Vinci

[PhreeZone 20]

What type of toggles are on the rig? Velcro or non-velcro? If they are velcro and get worn the chages of a toggle releasing increases since the toggle is able to be released with the slightest bump.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[CornishChris 5]

I have had a few brake fires. Once you know what the situation is they are reasonably easy to fix, especially with larger and more docile canopies.

I know students who have cut away for less and you did well for working it out, with the help of your instructor. Hopefully you have debriefed enough to know what to do if it happens again.

The reason you may not have had many replies is that whilst this seems like a big thing to you, and is in terms of the situations you have had to deal with, it is fairly straightfoarward and did not result in any injuries - don't be deterred from posting!

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[superwoman8433 0]

We do give a shit, but you have to realize most people were jumping yesterday when you posted. From the sounds of it, it sounds like you had one brake unstowed or it came unstowed during opening. I haven't had this happen to me but I have plenty of friends it has happened too and more then half have had to cutaway because they were on smaller canopies and the force was to much.

Did you learn anything from the jump?? I know as a student, you are in overload mode (our at least I was). but if you can get something out of the jump, then its 10x better. Maybe what you learned is to unstow both brakes before cutting away??

[shropshire 0]

Why are you giving up posting? You only made the first post in the thread less than a day ago. Posts dont always get immediate replies... patients...


Anyway. I had the self same problem years and years ago on one of my first Ram-Air canopy jumps (I was lower, no radio so cut it away) - we live and learn.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SkyHigh04 0]

Thanks for the replies. I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, it's a Monday, what do you expect? lol

Yeah it def wasn't a major issue but being that it was only my 6th jump, 3rd solo, it made me realize that I can react to a situation in the air.

"...And once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been, and there you long to return..." - Leonardo da Vinci

[peregrinerose 0]

First, Alex isn't the most patient student in the world. I can't count the number of times I've used the phrase 'patience grasshopper' or some derivative with him

Velcro toggles, but the velcro is in good shape, definitely not worn and there are keepers for the toggle tabs. My husband packed the rig prior to Alex's jump, there is a chance that one toggle may not have been set to begin with, but given that he's been a packer for 3+ years with 1000s of pack jobs, that's unlikely... but anything's possible.

Alex responded well, and definitely got a very comprehensive debrief regarding the situation (and the rest of his skydive as well). He is a very aware and heads-up jumper, and although the popped brake startled him and shook him up a bit, he didn't panic, listened to the radio, solved the problem with guidance, was altitude aware while spinning, and learned a lot about canopy problem solving in the process.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Orange1 0]

3 things from the replies that caught my eye:

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I know students who have cut away for less and you did well for working it out, with the help of your instructor.

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Maybe what you learned is to unstow both brakes before cutting away??

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I had the self same problem years and years ago on one of my first Ram-Air canopy jumps (I was lower, no radio so cut it away) - we live and learn.

Isn't this all connected with what you are taught on FJC (at that jump # level)? I remember being taught to check for "float, shape, spin" and if any of those weren't right to cut away (we were taught to flare twice for end cell closure or slider hangup). It's easy in hindsight to say something, but this is - i think - another example of where there is a big gap in what you learn in FJC and what you end up learning by osmosis or experience along the way, there being no "intermediate jump course".

If the student had not been on radio and had cut away, I wouldn't be surprised if he had got some grief for doing so (I have seen similar reactions to that situation on dz.com in the past) - yet i think it would have been a perfectly understandable reaction, given what he had probably been taught so far.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[shropshire 0]

Getting startled, early in ones progression (as happened to me too) is not always a bad thing.. I quickly became confident in my [spare] kit...

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[peregrinerose 0]

If Alex had chopped, he may have gotten a bit of shit on here if he posted it, but in real life at the DZ he would have gotten a pat on the back and no shit at all. We would have told him 'good job dealing with the malfunction, you couldn't land your canopy, didn't know how to fix the problem, and took the appropriate measures to get a landable canopy over your head.' We also would have spent time working with him on how to deal with a problem like that next time, but we'd all rather see a student chop a fixable issue than ride a spinning canopy down and bounce. Gear can be replaced.

A popped brake IS covered in the FJC, however, it's there with a lot of other information too and as it's not the most important thing to remember on a first jump, it's not stressed heavily. More minor information like that is often forgotten by students, but that's ok, situations like this make for great learning experiences and refreshers. It taught Alex a lot about canopy flight as well as a thing or two about himself and how he reacts to an unusual situation.

How an experienced jumper and a student jumper deal with problems can be completely different on some things. My husband had a hung up slider on one side that put him into a spin on jump number 92. Right now, at 650 jumps, he'd pump the brakes and work with it a bit before chopping, but at jump 92, his first instinct was to chop without touching the brakes, so he did. Nothing wrong with either method. Experience teaches quite a bit and the only way to gain experience in knowing what's fixable and what isn't is to jump more, spend lots of time on the ground at the DZ listening to instructors and asking questions, and sometimes to literally learn on the fly

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[billvon 3,118]

>Isn't this all connected with what you are taught on FJC (at that jump #
>level)? I remember being taught to check for "float, shape, spin" and if
>any of those weren't right to cut away . . . .

Really? That would surprise me. A premature brake fire is a pretty common problem, and is covered in most FJC's. (As are line twists, hung slider, closed end cells, canopies with slight built-in turns, pilot chute over the nose etc etc.)

SkyHigh, were brake fires covered in your first jump course?

[peregrinerose 0]

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SkyHigh, were brake fires covered in your first jump course?

As I said in my post, yes, it is part of his FJC, as well as the recurrency training I gave him a month ago, but no student remembers every single thing they are told after 3 AFF jumps

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[SkyHigh04 0]

Yes it was covered but there is a lot of information to absorb. So when it actually happened I knew I still had altitude to try and fix the issue and then I was seconds from implementing emergency procedures when radio noticed i wasn't making the desired left turn. In my slideshow of the jump that I posted, you can somewhat see me spinning in the first two canopy pics. Someone on the ground thought they heard my screaming...lol

"...And once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been, and there you long to return..." - Leonardo da Vinci

[danielcroft 2]

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If Alex had chopped, he may have gotten a bit of shit on here if he posted it, but in real life at the DZ he would have gotten a pat on the back and no shit at all.

That was my experience.

I spun up a good canopy in a turn & chopped as I was spinning & had 5 to 10 twists. People who saw it said I did the right thing because I was being whipped out sideways. Ended up chopping at about my hard deck.

Glad you dealt with it dude, much better than a reserve ride. That just pissed me off. I certainly learned a lot from the experience and everyone says it's good that I "got it out of the way" but I wish I'd been able to fix it. Not second guessing myself, I did the right thing and no one can tell me otherwise. I'm much more gradual with my inputs now, even with the "you can't really fuck this up" student canopies...

[Orange1 0]

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>Isn't this all connected with what you are taught on FJC (at that jump #
>level)? I remember being taught to check for "float, shape, spin" and if
>any of those weren't right to cut away . . . .

Really? That would surprise me. A premature brake fire is a pretty common problem, and is covered in most FJC's. (As are line twists, hung slider, closed end cells, canopies with slight built-in turns, pilot chute over the nose etc etc.)

SkyHigh, were brake fires covered in your first jump course?

We didn't get taught PC over the nose either, but that would have been because i went SL... of course I did then get a PC over the nose on my very first freefall ...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[peregrinerose 0]

Our FJC DOES cover PC over the nose for IAD/SL as well as AFF students. Just remember that what you were taught and what you remember being taught are 2 different things. A person only retains about 16% of the information thrown at them in a course, so unless you sat through the FJC 7 times, it's not possible to remember everything (which is why some things are stressed more than others... we want that 16% to be the most important information), the rest will come with reviews on later jumps.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[billvon 3,118]

>A person only retains about 16% of the information thrown at them in a course . . .

Interesting. We do a two page written test at the end, and if I had to guess the average score would be around 80%.

[kelpdiver 2]

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SkyHigh, were brake fires covered in your first jump course?

As I said in my post, yes, it is part of his FJC, as well as the recurrency training I gave him a month ago, but no student remembers every single thing they are told after 3 AFF jumps

Pull altitude is 4000 for AFF3 there? Even with an non eventful opening, that's getting close to the decision height by the time the canopy is open. 3200?

I remember after AFF1, just staring at the canopy for a good while deciding if it looked 'good.'

[peregrinerose 0]

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>A person only retains about 16% of the information thrown at them in a course . . .

Interesting. We do a two page written test at the end, and if I had to guess the average score would be around 80%.

That 2 page written test covers the important parts of FJC, not 100% of the material covered. It's also given immediately after the FJC, not a week later.

That's why there's so much review in the AFF program (category quizzes, A license quizzes, proficiency card reviews), so that retention is improved... that's true of any teaching style, and something I have to keep in mind on a daily basis since I'm a doctor. It's why I review findings on every visit and phone call, to improve retention.

During the course of medical education is where I learned that first, and it was from a couple of different studies. It was repeated as part of my AFF I course. The old joke is that you can always repeat everything 7 times, then the retention is theoretically 100%

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda