I'm going to try to give up meat....need advice

[Vallerina 2]

Quote

So if we went out and killed an animal with our bare hands and ate them that would be ok?

Everyone has their own moral guidelines to follow. For me, no, it would not be okay. I do not need to end a life so that I can enjoy a sandwich for 5 minutes.

A great quote from Dominion: I am betting that in the Book of Life "He had mercy on the creatures" is going to count for more than "He ate well."

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[scottbre 0]

Quote

Animals don't cage up other animals when they eat them. Animals don't have big factories of animals. Some animals are carnivores. We are not.

True, we aren't carnivores, we are omnivores.

So what you're saying is that it ok to scare the living shit out of an animal, possibly disembowel it, and even start ripping away its flesh and start eating it while the animal may still be dying a very slow and and painful death, but it's not ok to breed animals beyond the population that would occur in the wild (same as what we do with plant crops), where they may not have pleasant lives (however that might be quantified) but die a quick and much less painful death, than had it been hunted and killed by a predator?

"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project

[wildblue 7]

Quote

Quote

I guess every animal that eats other animals is selfish then? Or does that only apply to humans?

Animals don't cage up other animals when they eat them. Animals don't have big factories of animals. Some animals are carnivores. We are not.

Animals don't plant fields full of whatever plant they like to eat either. They eat what they can find. Unfortunately, until my plan for world domination goes into effect, there's too many humans on the planet - we have to 'mass produce' what we consume. We do it with veggies, we do it with meat. I'm not saying it's right for either, and we'll no doubt over-populate and destroy the earth... but to 'protest' that, I'd have to stop eating altogether.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[PLFKING 4]

Quote

My advice? Don't give up red meat.

True dat.....don't give it up completely, but you could cut back.

Does anyone else here eat raw meat ? When I was in college, a lot of the athletes ate 4-6 ozs of lean, raw steak about 3 times a week. I've continued with that practice for the last 20+ years, but now I don't know anyone else who does, and it always grosses out my co-workers.

And Val....after dating Seth, I can understand your aversion to meat (especially small-meat ) products.


Don

"When in doubt I whip it out,
I got me a rock-and-roll band.
It's a free-for-all."

[Vallerina 2]

Quote

but die a quick and much less painful death, than had it been hunted and killed by a predator?

Are you sure about that? What about the animals that get trampelled in the factories? What about the ones that get sick and no one notices?

Quote

So what you're saying is that it ok

I'm saying that, for me, it's okay to eat what I need to eat to live. It's not okay for me to know how hogs live in the factories and enjoy my egg McMuffin for a few minutes.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Remster 30]

Quote

but to 'protest' that, I'd have to stop eating altogether.

I'll support you!


I'll start a website to help you motivate you to stop eating! Yeah!!!!!!!

Remster

[Vallerina 2]

Quote

we have to 'mass produce' what we consume

So, it's okay to mass produce other living beings? Should we do that with babies? Should we mass produce kids...kill off the ones that we don't want?

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Conundrum 1]

Quote

Everyone has their own moral guidelines to follow. For me, no, it would not be okay. I do not need to end a life so that I can enjoy a sandwich for 5 minutes.

but here you said:

Quote

Animals don't cage up other animals when they eat them. Animals don't have big factories of animals. Some animals are carnivores. We are not.

You said you dont want to eat meat because it's we cage them up etc. But it's ok for an animal to do it because they dont cage them up, but still not ok for us to kill an animal they way a wild animal would kill to eat.

[Vallerina 2]

Oh! And we also have to produce even more food for the animals to eat...so, we're not even just mass producing grains that humans only need....

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Vallerina 2]

Quote

You said you dont want to eat meat because it's we cage them up etc. But it's ok for an animal to do it because they dont cage them up, but still not ok for us to kill an animal they way a wild animal would kill to eat.

I never said what's okay for others to do...I have my own moral guidelines.

Another quote: What is it about the question of animal suffering that makes such ordinarily reasonable people fly off the handle?

I don't really understand why we match human morals with animal morals. Lions' instincts are far greater than their capacity to understand emotions of other animals.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[scottbre 0]

Quote

So, it's okay to mass produce other living beings? Should we do that with babies? Should we mass produce kids...kill off the ones that we don't want?

I'm going to ignore the baby comment because that is so far out of the range of the topic of food production, that it doesn't even warrant being mentioned in this discussion.

However, yes, it is ok to mass produce other living beings. They call places where that happens farms.

"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project

[Vallerina 2]

Quote

I'm going to ignore the baby comment because that is so far out of the range of the topic of food production, that it doesn't even warrant being mentioned in this discussion.

I think babies are more relevant to other animals than plants.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[scottbre 0]

Quote

I think babies are more relevant to other animals than plants.

How is that? Do yo know many people who eat babies? Because I thought we were talking about killing animals and plants for consumption purposes...

"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project

[hungarianchick 0]

If it's really important to you go for it! You can have a completely healthy and balanced diet without meat if you take the time to educate yourself.

By the way, your original post was asking for ADVICE only, not a moral discussion, so just ignore them!

I second the opinion on the Moosewood cookbook and the sequel The Enchanted Broccoli Forest (really)
Also, make sure you include peppermint in your diet since you can expect to be gassy for a few months, and that could be a problem on jumprun!

"I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food."

[Conundrum 1]

Quote

I never said what's okay for others to do...I have my own moral guidelines.

You said that you want to give meat up because it was selfish to kill for food, I asked if all animals are selfish then, and you said that they don't cage them up but we do..... so I even asked that if we went out and killed like they do would it then be alright, and you still said no..... I drew the conclusion you were saying it was ok for animals but not us.

[Vallerina 2]

Quote

Also, make sure you include peppermint in your diet since you can expect to be gassy for a few months, and that could be a problem on jumprun!

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Best advice yet on this thread!

Quote

Because I thought we were talking about killing animals and plants for consumption purposes...

No, I was just talking about killing animals....to wear, eat, whatever.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[wildblue 7]

Quote

Another quote: What is it about the question of animal suffering that makes such ordinarily reasonable people fly off the handle?

Soooo... which side of the argument is that for or against? It sounds like it's questioning why people would become vegetarians based soley on 'animal suffering'

Quote

A great quote from Dominion: I am betting that in the Book of Life "He had mercy on the creatures" is going to count for more than "He ate well."

I'd rather be known as "Made use of the resources, knowledge, and tools he was given" ... I'll bet that counts more than "He was a pansie."

Quote

What about the animals that get trampelled in the factories? What about the ones that get sick and no one notices?

And animals get sick all the time in the 'wild' and no one notices.. they fall down, they get caught in fires, they suffer horribly.

No, we shouldn't mass produce babies, we already have enough of a population, and they'd serve no purpose.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Vallerina 2]

No, I wouldn't try to stop anybody from eating meat. Do whatever you want. There are a lot of things that I wouldn't do because it's wrong for me. I'm not going to try to stop others, though.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Vallerina 2]

Quote

Soooo... which side of the argument is that for or against? It sounds like it's questioning why people would become vegetarians based soley on 'animal suffering'

Wow...does that quote really not make sense to you? I never tried to tell other people to become vegetarians. I said that I don't want to eat meat for certain reasons. I don't want to eat a pig that sits in its own feces. I think it's wrong to put an animal through that. When I said something about why I'm not eating meat, people decide to debate how it's okay to eat meat. People try to justify their eating meat way too much. It's cowardly. Instead of just saying, "Yeah, it is wrong to eat meat, but I'm still giong to," people get way too defensive about it.

Quote

I'd rather be known as "Made use of the resources, knowledge, and tools he was given" ... I'll bet that counts more than "He was a pansie."

I'm a pansy because I'm not going to eat meat? And, I will use my resources, and I won't have to kill animals. My guess is that if I don't die from an accident, I'll live longer than avg. life expectancy...how am I not using my resources?

Quote

And animals get sick all the time in the 'wild' and no one notices.. they fall down, they get caught in fires, they suffer horribly.

So, we should make others suffer more? Is it okay for us to cause them to suffer because it's going to happen anyways??? That seems like silly logic.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Conundrum 1]

Quote

No, I wouldn't try to stop anybody from eating meat. Do whatever you want. There are a lot of things that I wouldn't do because it's wrong for me. I'm not going to try to stop others, though.

That really has nothing to do with what I said.

I'm trying to see and understand your way of thinking. You say its ok for animals but not humans in general because you think what we do is cruel yet is still wouldn't be ok if we did it the animal way and you arent really answering the question. Just tryin to understand is all.

[Vallerina 2]

I don't understand how people can actually try to compare animals eating other animals in the wild to us having pig factories.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Should we mass produce kids...kill off the ones that we don't want?

Actually they did have a problem with that in China about 20 some years ago. People were having so many kids that the country was being overpopulated so the communist government passed a law (or severely punished people) that each family could only have one child. Oriental culture being what it is, the fathers honor was severely disgraced if he did not have a son. So what ended up happening was many girl babies were killed to make sure the one child was a son.
After the government saw what was happening the removed the "law" and encouraged people to have 2 kids.

Not really relevant but does prove a point.

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

No, I wouldn't try to stop anybody from eating meat. Do whatever you want. There are a lot of things that I wouldn't do because it's wrong for me. I'm not going to try to stop others, though.

Exactly. I have very strong opinions on just about everything, but I feel that just as strongly as I feel one way, someone might feel another, so who I am to judge them?

But, regarding the meat-thing...by default, my poor boy-toy has become more veggie-tarian, too, b/c I AM the one who does the grocery shopping and I refuse to by anything but fish, or any products tested on animals (which pretty much leaves out ANY household product at the grocery store, so I have to shop elsewhere for shampoo, laundry detergent, etc.).
He doesn't mind all that much, though. He's lost weight, feels better and still gets his steak at Outback when we go

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Conundrum 1]

Quote

I don't understand how people can actually try to compare animals eating other animals in the wild to us having pig factories.

You still arent understanding what I'm saying. You are ignoring the fact that you even said if we didnt have factories and we did it the animal way it still would not be ok to you.

You said you are still going to eat fish for a while..... you don't think what we do to fish is cruel?

[scottbre 0]

Quote

Wow...does that quote really not make sense to you? I never tried to tell other people to become vegetarians. I said that I don't want to eat meat for certain reasons. I don't want to eat a pig that sits in its own feces. I think it's wrong to put an animal through that.

But it's ok to make babies do that? It happens, you know, with the help of a terribly cruel device called a diaper.

Quote

Instead of just saying, "Yeah, it is wrong to eat meat, but I'm still giong to," people get way too defensive about it.

That's probably because it's NOT wrong. But people like to come up with fads and philosophical rationals for why they do what they do, instead of just doing it.

Quote

And animals get sick all the time in the 'wild' and no one notices.. they fall down, they get caught in fires, they suffer horribly.

So, we should make others suffer more? Is it okay for us to cause them to suffer because it's going to happen anyways??? That seems like silly logic.