RIGGER 0 #1 December 4, 2009 Hi This rig arrived to me today. Looking at the rig I saw some issues BUT look at that Non Approved RSL modification done on the rig by ??? Beside being an non approved alteration it is a High Risk RSL setting - look at the cable 2 guide rings distance from the reserve closig pin. Also look at the poor setting of the Hook Velcro on the right yoke which is killing the reserve risers. I do wonder how riggers packed the rig "as is" ?? or maybe I should not wonder ?? It looks like a week of Poor Rigging findings. Riggers - making money is fine making SAFE money is an HONOR !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #2 December 4, 2009 pictures..? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #3 December 4, 2009 At the risk of sounding stupid Ill go ahead and ask. What makes this setup high risk? I agree that the rings are rather close to the pin, but how would that keep the rsl from extracting the pin from the closing loop?Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #4 December 4, 2009 Just guessing, but I suspect that the rings need to be far enough from the closing loop to allow the pin to clear the closing loop before the pin enters the loop. I can imagine a scenario where a pin could get caught between the closing loop and the nearest ring. I further suspect that if the pin did get hung, it might be impossible to pull manually, due to fighting against the drag of the main.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #5 December 4, 2009 Falling Forward / head low after cutaway might brake the cable or bent the pin. There is a HIGH RISK that in that body position after cutaway that the RSL lanyard can not pull the cable. It happened in the past & the cable broke at that point as I was told by UPT. There is a legal RWS / UPT approved RSL retrofit for Vector 2 to be done by Master Riggers which require a kit from UPT. For your info. Be Safe !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #6 December 4, 2009 yop, you are risking the pin being locked off by the guide ring. here are pics of a Javelin, look how much higher up the rings sit. also, I have not seen such RSL setup on a Vector, I always thought Vector RSL = Collins = marine eye on the ripcord, and pin on the RSL pigtail ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #7 December 4, 2009 Thanks. The cable breaking never even entered my mind. How messed up would that be to cut away then pull your reserve cable and nothing happens? Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #8 December 4, 2009 Copy that. So in the original poster's pics it looks like an after the fact modification. Also, I noticed on the Jav pics that the rsl lanyard is on the same side as the guide rings/reserve cable. This is not the case on the first set of pics. Is this also an error on the first rig posted?Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #9 December 4, 2009 Quote Copy that. So in the original poster's pics it looks like an after the fact modification. Also, I noticed on the Jav pics that the rsl lanyard is on the same side as the guide rings/reserve cable. This is not the case on the first set of pics. Is this also an error on the first rig posted? I am not sure at what point anything with that rig is "not an error", but no, as the rsl pigtail pulls inline between the 2guiderings, it's unlikely to be effected by being on the right or left riser. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I'll let RIGGER comment on that, as he has just a bit more experience in those things Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #10 December 5, 2009 Quote There is a legal RWS / UPT approved RSL retrofit for Vector 2 to be done by Master Riggers which require a kit from UPT. Shlomo, There are two more ways to be legal installing an aftermarket RSL. 1. Ray Ferrell has an STC to install them on there with I believe just one guide ring. 2. Field approvals from our local FSDO can be obtained to install them legally. The install that you have therfe is lacking in many areas. If the guy that did it is that sloppy, he probably did not even bother with the paperwork or for that matter even know how to precede with the process of filing it! BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deadwood 0 #11 December 5, 2009 Quote: " Ray Ferrell has an STC to install them on there with I believe just one guide ring." I always wondered how the FDSO justified this. How can you have a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) on something that doesn’t have a Type Certificate?He who hesitates shall inherit the earth. Deadwood Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #12 December 5, 2009 I know Ray's FAA approval & drawings for a Vector 1&2 RSL retrofit/alteration which was on the Left side - this setting is not even close to it. Ray's alteration is NOT APPROVED by RWS/UPT the h/c mfg. As I said a Master Rigger can buy the RWS/UPT's V1&2 RSL kit & retrofit the h/c legaly & Approved by the MFG. as well. Be Safe !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #13 December 5, 2009 Left or Right sid eis not the issue here see my early posts. Some History: Original Javelins have a Right side RSL with the 2 guide rings as the later Javelins with the Left side RSL. This was changed back to Right side with the Javelin/Skyhook/Skyhook ready h/c's in 2 steps: First Javlein with Skyhook/Skyhook ready with the Velcroless RSL lanyard & left side 1 guide ring for the ripcord cable which was removed on later modles. All Javelins with Skyhook/Skyhook ready h/c's have a Velcroless RSL lanyard sized by YOKE size. Original Infinity h/c have a Left Side RSL & the present Infinity have it on the Right side using 1 guide ring & Velcroless lanyard. Dolphin h/c have it on the Right side with 1 guide ring. All Vetor h/c have the RSL on the RIGHT side as a RWS/UPT poilcy & never has 2 guide rings but only 1 large guide ring at right side TOP of reserve top flap which the 9/16" Ty.1 RSL lanyard passed into it on the way down to the grommet - the PIN was at the END of the Lanyard. Vector 1&2 Tandem systems has the 1" Ty.4 RSL lanyard & a 900 lb. Dacron line from lanyard to the pin which went into the same large guide ring. When the "Collins Lanyard" went into service on the Sigma tandem systems they has the 1" Ty.4 RSL lanyard & the 1000 lb. Spectra line tail from the lanyard to the closing pin which passed into the same ring. The ring was removed when the SKYHOOK system enter into service or when the Vector 3 was Skyhook retrofit by the mfg. or an Approved Master Rigger. "Action Air" (Ray Ferrell) Vector 1&2 RSL alteration was approved by the FAA but NOT APPROVED by RWS/UPT the h/c mfg. I hope this is giving some info. on the RSL system on some USA made h/c. Safe Rigging & Riggers !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #14 December 5, 2009 Enclosed some photos showing the Vector 2 RWS/UPT RSL on the right side - this is a retrofit done with RWS/UPT kit. Also see the RSL (No Skyhook) on the Vector 3. For your info. Be Safe !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #15 December 8, 2009 Guide rings should be sewn FARTHER from the last grommet, similar to most ripcord housings. The pin should be able to travel its full length, before it encounters any other hindrance. As an aside, if the housing were installed better (eg. even with the edge of that tape) the rig would not even need a second guide ring (ala. Talon Mark 1). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #16 December 9, 2009 Not only a non-approved RSL but the reserve ripcord is not approved. Vector 2 ripcords have an elylet at the end not a pin. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #17 December 9, 2009 That rig should not be closed without an AAD in it, therefore as pictured would not be airworthy by any standard of inspection as AAD's are mandatory in all tandem rigs, are they not?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #18 December 9, 2009 Quote That rig should not be closed without an AAD in it, therefore as pictured would not be airworthy by any standard of inspection as AAD's are mandatory in all tandem rigs, are they not? is that really a tandem ? scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmless 0 #19 December 9, 2009 Quote Quote That rig should not be closed without an AAD in it, therefore as pictured would not be airworthy by any standard of inspection as AAD's are mandatory in all tandem rigs, are they not? is that really a tandem ? Doesn't look like one to me..."Damn you Gravity, you win again" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #20 December 9, 2009 Quote Doesn't look like one to me...to me neither (i might have missed a couple of pics in the thread, but none looked like a tandem)scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #21 December 9, 2009 Quote Not only a non-approved RSL but the reserve ripcord is not approved. Vector 2 ripcords have an elylet at the end not a pin. Sparky Only if they came from the factory with and RSL. A non RSL equipped Vector II would have come with a standard reserve ripcord.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #22 December 9, 2009 Quote That rig should not be closed without an AAD in it, therefore as pictured would not be airworthy by any standard of inspection as AAD's are mandatory in all tandem rigs, are they not? I don't see a tandem rig in the photos. In addition simply packing and closing a Tandem rig without an AAD does not mean it's unairworthy in any way. If it's used for Tandems in the USA, then there would be a violation of an FAR, but not in airworthyness.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #23 December 9, 2009 Quote Quote That rig should not be closed without an AAD in it, therefore as pictured would not be airworthy by any standard of inspection as AAD's are mandatory in all tandem rigs, are they not? I don't see a tandem rig in the photos. In addition simply packing and closing a Tandem rig without an AAD does not mean it's unairworthy in any way. If it's used for Tandems in the USA, then there would be a violation of an FAR, but not in airworthiness. ................................................................................................. Holy thread drift Batman! .. since the original picture does not include a tandem. Closing a tandem reserve without an AAD may not re illegal, but it is certainly a waste of time, because you cannot jump it without an AAD. Similarly, packing a tandem - without an AAD - would be frowned upon in Canada, because CSPA's BSRs require AADs on all student and tandem reserves. Maybe not illegal in Canada, because the Canadian Air Regulations say very little about parachutes. But Transport Canada Enforcement will nail your ass to the courtroom wall if you hurt someone while ignoring standard industry practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #24 December 10, 2009 Quote Quote Quote That rig should not be closed without an AAD in it, therefore as pictured would not be airworthy by any standard of inspection as AAD's are mandatory in all tandem rigs, are they not? I don't see a tandem rig in the photos. In addition simply packing and closing a Tandem rig without an AAD does not mean it's unairworthy in any way. If it's used for Tandems in the USA, then there would be a violation of an FAR, but not in airworthiness. ................................................................................................. Holy thread drift Batman! .. since the original picture does not include a tandem. Closing a tandem reserve without an AAD may not re illegal, but it is certainly a waste of time, because you cannot jump it without an AAD. Similarly, packing a tandem - without an AAD - would be frowned upon in Canada, because CSPA's BSRs require AADs on all student and tandem reserves. Maybe not illegal in Canada, because the Canadian Air Regulations say very little about parachutes. But Transport Canada Enforcement will nail your ass to the courtroom wall if you hurt someone while ignoring standard industry practice. It seems to me that you could use a tandem rig for a solo - no student/passenger - jump without an AAD. The definition of "tandem parachute system" in 105.3 says it includes the harness for a "passenger parachutist". If you aren't using the second harness, then the system does not fit the definition of "tandem parachute system". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #25 December 10, 2009 Bingo. One used for say a "flag rig", has no AAD requirement.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
