hookitt 1 #26 September 20, 2004 Yes they should know how. They should be able to perform a complete gear check before donning the rig. It's not necessary to know exactly how every thing works, because that comes in time. However, the grad should know how to determine if everything is configured correctly. If the AFF student should be taught how everything looks when it's correct, it's easier to spot if it's incorrect. Don't ever teach what it looks like to be misconfigured. Now, that said, if they don't know how to turn on a cypres, it's not the end of the world. Just show them again. Perhaps ask an instructor to perform a gear check refresher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #27 September 20, 2004 QuoteSunny, I don't think this post was brought up to belittle the student. I'm sure it wasn't but i'm so tired of people expecting things to be perfect. It's way too common now to see posts about "stupid comment a newbie made" "i can't believe a new license holder doesn't know this." It's ridiculous. Point is people don't know everything. Until every single student learns from the same exact instructor that teaches the exact same thing everytime, things like not knowing how to turn on a cypres are gonna happen. People get too worked up over the stupidest shit nowadays. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #28 September 20, 2004 Quote.. However, the grad should know how to determine if everything is configured correctly. If the AFF student should be taught how everything looks when it's correct, it's easier to spot if it's incorrect. Don't ever teach what it looks like to be misconfigured. Now, that said, if they don't know how to turn on a cypres, it's not the end of the world. Just show them again. Perhaps ask an instructor to perform a gear check refresher. the bold part is exactly true. and in thise case the grad DID know something was up which is the important part that he or she sought help is even better!My photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #29 September 20, 2004 I think it was more of a comment about the dz. And let me ask you this-- is it ok for a student to go through the FJC and not learn PLF's? Hell fucking no, it isn't, and it's happened to someone I know (NOT at my home dz, I'd like to add). Just a sidebar, really, because it has little to do with what we're talking about. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JRock 0 #30 September 20, 2004 No.... maybe a lot of newbies will read this post and take something away from it. I can't believe people get worked up about someone trying to spread a little safety. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #31 September 20, 2004 However, just because someone isn't taught exactly like you were, it doesn't mean that the training is bad or the instruction is bad, etc. It means its different. (not directed at Kelly, just a general comment).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #32 September 20, 2004 QuoteHowever, just because someone isn't taught exactly like you were, it doesn't mean that the training is bad or the instruction is bad, etc. It means its different. Perfectly stated dave. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #33 September 20, 2004 I know you said not directed at me, but who was it directed at? Certainly more the CYPRES side of the discussion than the PLF part, right? Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #34 September 20, 2004 Thanks jtval That's exactly what I meant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #35 September 20, 2004 Quotewho was it directed at? Certainly more the CYPRES side of the discussion than the PLF part, right? Actually it was directed more at the "AFF is the king of training a student and tandems are worthless, you're only hard core if you do SL training and you should do 15 tandems before AFF" crowd.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #36 September 20, 2004 You bring up a good point sunshine... A "good" AFFI might be inclined to teach a student how to turn on a cypress but I know at least I didn't have the same instructor for all of my jumps... as I'm sure is the case for many of you... so it is possible that teaching a student how to turn on a cypress could be overlooked... its possible that this is a reason that it is an A license requirement to learn how a AAD functions. Scott ----------------------------------------------------------Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #37 September 20, 2004 Oh, I see. Yeah, I might have seen that on here a time or two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #38 September 20, 2004 Quoteits possible that this is a reason that it is an A license requirement to learn how a AAD functions. It's also a requirement to do at least one pack job, 3ring maintenance, etc. After the student does it once and gets it checked off, they often times forget how to do it. I think it's quite comendable when the person admits they don't know how to do something and asks for help. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #39 September 20, 2004 My only concern is that they asked YOU! Just kidding J.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bendywendy 0 #40 September 20, 2004 Definately a yes an no answer to that one. Yes, they should know BUT as a student they probably only ever turned it on (if they even did) the one time an instructor showed them every other time it was probably already on when they picked up the rig. There are a lot of things people are told in AFF that they don't retain because someone else is always doing it for them or it just doesn't really apply to them yet and their heads are so full of other stuff... worrying about whether they will live or not because they just don't really have a clue what they are doing yet. So cut them some slack and just always be helpful to the new jumpers around you. So few of them are perfect - like all of us! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RkyMtnHigh 0 #41 September 20, 2004 The good news is that the student asked and had an opportunity to learn something new to build upon the basics taught during AFF. My perspective is that the purpose of AFF is to teach the basics of flying your body, getting stable, altitude awareness, pulling on time, and recognizing a mal if you have one and going thru the emergency procedure to save your own life. So much information is thrown at a student during those 7 levels that it's so hard to remember everything. In college, I used to study using the "need to know" vs "nice to know" approach..but in skydiving, it's all mostly NEED TO KNOW. I'll guess that the student was taught about the Cypres, however his/her mind is so cluttered with all of the other important skills to remember that this was one that they weren't so sure about and felt the need to double check. Atleast their ego wasn't in the way of asking. So many are afraid to ask others and start out by saying "I know I should know this"..or "this might be a stupid question, but..." I'll vouch that student status is intensely stressful because of all there is to remember...and the learning process continues well after you graduate AFF...in fact, I'm still having "ah ha" moments and loving it every time I do! So there...my $.02.. AH HA! _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,550 #42 September 20, 2004 Nope; they asked. Maybe they're dedicating the active brain cells to other things (like freefall hopefullly), and putting the Cypres into the background, where it belongs. Frankly, I have to look at the book to reset the altitudes on my Dytter, so I don't bother. The gear check is to make sure that the gear is properly done; there are other paths to get there. I'm sure there are A-license jumpers who have only done one packjob in their lives, and who can only do a gear check by rote, not by understanding what they're looking at. To me, assigning the process of turning on the Cypres to secondary (if that's what's happening), while keeping the assurance that it's turned on as primary, is a good decision. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soulshine 0 #43 September 20, 2004 Quote but I know at least I didn't have the same instructor i did not have the same instructor each time, few students actually are that lucky. the problem that i encountered is that some would be rushed and simply perform a gear check for me without an explanation. i said some, not all. other times what was explained to me one way was done in a different way by another instructor on the next jump. i also believe that some of the responsibility was on me as well. after all, i'm the one jumping the gear so i should take it upon myself to find out how shit works. bottom line...the guy had a question and he asked it. i say good for him. he recognized that it was an important thing and he asked for help. Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity! ~DEVIOUS BEEF~~FGF #69~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #44 September 20, 2004 Ahhh... Safety and AFF. AFF (in it's various forms) generally gives the student 7 good jumps to "qualify". I have personally seen a first jump student turn up at a DZ on Friday, and do his final qualifying jump on Sunday!!! While that newly qualified skydiver was a natural in the air (at least in the sense that he could do all of the freefall and canopy exercises at least once or twice), he has only spent some 24-30 hours exposed to the DZ environment, and almost all of it in the company of one of his 3 instructors. He'd been shown most things, possibly everything, once. A skydiver 5 jumps off AFF "could" have as little as 12 jumps! In effect his "skill" far exceeds his experience. In the case of switching on a Cypres, the AFF student will probably have been shown it ONCE. A "good" AFF instructor will not switch a Cypres on and off for each student that jumps a rig. That's because a good AFFI will KNOW that switching a Cypres off and on guts the battery. A good AFFI knows that Cypres battery replacement costs for the battery AND the reserve repack. A good AFFI knows that a "before schedule" Cypres battery replacement can take a rig out of service for up to a week, probably more with a small DZ and a busy rigger. The most important point about safety is that ALL DZ staff, from the DZO, Chief Instructor, down to the newly qualified packer and the woman who makes the coffee at the cafe knows the following: "The only stupid question here is the one you don't ask!" And: "If I can't teach you the answer to your question, then I'll take you to someone who can!" That IS safety. Safety isn't bitchin' about what someone does or doesn't know, should or shouldn't know, or has or hasn't been taught. Safety is making sure that they NOW know and understand what they've asked about! [rant] Don't seek to apportion blame. Seek to fix the problem[/rant] Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #45 September 20, 2004 Quotelike how to turn on their CYPRES? This absolutely made me cringe. I think it's more important for an AFF grad to knows how to jump without a Cypres. AADs are good for saving us from freefall collisions, but none of us should ever jump ... period ... if we are reliant on AADs. No doubt there will be people who disagree with me. But most of those people, are people who have never jumped without an AAD. So if a skydiver is knowingly jumping without an AAD, then kudos to them. Then they can make the informed decision whether to jump with or without an AAD. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #46 September 20, 2004 QuoteLike how to turn on their CYPRES? This absolutely made me cringe. An individual about to jump,( 5 jumps off of student status) asked me to show them how to turn on the CYPRES. Does this bother anyone else? HMM does it bother you that I have 325 jumps and don't know how to turn on a CYPRES??? Never owned one and don't plan on buying one. If I ever need to know I will ask. When I did AFF the gear had FXC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #47 September 20, 2004 QuoteSo if a skydiver is knowingly jumping without an AAD, then kudos to them. Then they can make the informed decision whether to jump with or without an AAD. I'm sorry, but thats a bit like saying "the only way you can stay away from drugs is to try them and decide you dont' like them, then you can make an informed decision." If you decide you want one, good, if you decide you don't want one, good, but people can make their own decisions without a condition added.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #48 September 20, 2004 I know that this will never happen (the USPA does not have the balls), but the first solo jump after graduation should be done without an AAD. The person is on a solo skydive so there is no danger of colliding with another skydiver. And if the person is unable to make that leap out of the airplane without their security blanket, then maybe they shouldn't be jumping. Don't get me wrong, AADs have a purpose and I jump with one turn on for most jumps. But they only should be reliabled upon for collisions. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Garycal 0 #49 September 20, 2004 No because I was trained with fxc and you just made sure the dial was set on jump Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #50 September 20, 2004 QuoteI know that this will never happen (the USPA does not have the balls), but the first solo jump after graduation should be done without an AAD. The person is on a solo skydive so there is no danger of colliding with another skydiver. And if the person is unable to make that leap out of the airplane without their security blanket, then maybe they shouldn't be jumping. Oh boy. If you think the only reason to ever need a cypres is due to a collision, thats bad. I passed out under canopy before. I could've passed out in freefall. It doesn't always take a collision for someone to be unconscious. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
