record attempt changes

[happythoughts 0]

Just for conversation...

A lot of new people are going to freeflying. A lot of the flatfly big-way attempt participants are old geezers.

If this trend continues, there may come a point where there are not enough experienced flatfliers to break the existing records.

Discuss among yourselves...

[eeneR 3]

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A lot of the flatfly big-way attempt participants are old geezers.

Hey! I wanna do flatflying big way stuff....and im not a Geezer

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[happythoughts 0]

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A lot of the flatfly big-way attempt participants are old geezers.

Hey! I wanna do flatflying big way stuff....and im not a Geezer

You can be the rare "child-participant".

[kelel01 1]

I'm not gonna argue with this. I mean, obviously not ALL flatfliers are old, but there is a definite trend towards freeflying. Although, this weekend we did a BFR for one of our freeflier's 1400th's!

[eeneR 3]

I will add this tidbit....I was on a 14 way hybrid dive...and we had 4 hangers....everyone had to dock on there belly before the dropped.

I see far to many FF's running straight over and not able to fly stable and solid and dock on something...needless to say one of the hangers had a very difficult time docking on the formation, and we never fully completed the drop.

I agree FF'ng kicks ass...but you need to learn the basics first...[/soapbox]

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[kelel01 1]

The BFR was just that, though. No points or anything . . . just a Big Fucking Round. I will say, I don't do RW or freeflying currently (mostly just playing on my belly with no real goals on a jump, I guess you could say), but seeing 12 people trying to make a round was really fun. It made me think about what Mouth says about how much fun big ways are. I never really believed her, and I still can't myself wanting to be in the air with 100 other people (certainly not now, but also not later), just because I'm a big chicken. But only time will tell.

[eeneR 3]

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The BFR was just that, though. No points or anything

Points or not, it is the ability to swoop down to a formation and dock smoothly that most (not all, i know quite a few that can) FF's have issues with. They got off student status and never learned how to do it, learned how to sit instead.

I may be young, but I guess I was raised by the old school folk

I agree with Mouth! Bigway stuff is soo much fun...it takes a lot of team work...when everything works...it just looks friggen awesome! 3 point 32 way right now is one of my fav's...right up there with it was a 5 point 22 way! getting that many people in the right place at the right time...more then once! woohoo!

Now having said that, I have every intention of learing FF'ng. I have an eh sit right now...not perfect..but I also have maybe 10 FF jumps total. I have all kinds of time to learn everything!

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[kelel01 1]

Yeah, I have about 7-10 sitfly attempts under my belt. Having to take a break from it because of my container, but I'm enjoying doing stuff like hybrids, tracking dives, high altitude hop-n-pops, etc. If I'd had my belly suit this weekend I would've jumped with Mouth and that Golden Knight she brought along, but my dumbass left it at home. Oh, well. If I play safe, I have all the time in the world to do stuff like that later.

[happythoughts 0]

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Points or not, it is the ability to swoop down to a formation and dock smoothly

I had a similar conversation with someone last weekend. It's not just freefliers, but also a few flatfliers.

90% of all flatflying is two things. 1. Being able to fly well in one spot. 2. Being able to go to another spot nearby in a controlled fashion.

Swooping, approach, and docking can be taught with a little practice. Aim takes a little while.

The easiest way to accelerate this learning is to do 4-way. If you can get some friends to commit to doing some regular 4-way stuff, you can learn to do certain skills correctly in a shorter time. Otherwise, people tend to drag out that process.

Some good 4-way coaching with video can help you see yourself and what you are really doing. It can also help you "see" what is going on in a video. Example - part of a dive is moving. You can isolate the problem and learn from it.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Not true at all, Bill. There are many, many capable primarilly-flat skydivers out there who simply don't want to spend the money going to camps and paying other people for their "OK" to get on those jumps. Likewise, there are plenty of capable big-way jumpers out there who get assed-up that they have to pay full price to get on those records while others get free rides. If the playing field were level for all attendees, then more people would participate.

Chuck

[Remster 30]

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they have to pay full price to get on those records while others get free rides

While I may not be at the level to participate at the worl record level, that part of the last record attemp didnt sit too well with me either. Would make me think twice, or at least choose which organizing group I would jump with.

Remster

[Vallerina 2]

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If this trend continues, there may come a point where there are not enough experienced flatfliers to break the existing records.

Okay, I'll probably get yelled at for this, but here goes. I have way more rw jumps than belly flying, and I know nothing, so that's my disclaimer.

My favorite thing to do in the sky is big-way stuff. I used to love going up there with 20 friends and celebrating on the ground after a successful jump. I don't do big-ways as much anymore because of the attitudes associated with it. Big-way flyers tend to be less fun than freefliers. If I'm looking around on a big-way, I won't see that many smiles. Yes, I know that people are taking the dive seriously, but lighten up. This is my hobby...not my life. I do it because I enjoy it, and it makes me smile. Yes, it would be nice to complete every formation, but as long as everyone is safe and having fun, it doesn't really matter. That's why I like hanging out with the freefliers better. It's been awhile for me to see someone on the other side of a formation wave at me, geek me, etc. I miss that stuff in big-way flying. It felt more like a party then.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[gemini 0]

If I work for almost a year to organize a big way, state record, etc. should I pay myself full price?

If the answer is no, then where do I draw the line?

Do plane captains get a free ride?
Do video guys?
If I invite BJ, Ponce, Kate, Dan or Tony to come do they get a free ride?

I understand your position, but I also think there has to be some room to get the quality people you need to make the big way safe, fun and successful.

Blues,

Blue skies,

Jim

[eeneR 3]

Now what I find is funny...I do see smiles on the bigways...yea I see the people that take it too damn seriously...but those people dont have to ruin all the fun. You cant tell me you havent heard the roars of laughter in the hanger at SDC when we have a good entertaining dive hell you have been on some too....

I guess it is all in perspective really.

But to what HT is saying, I see a lot of people come off student status, and got straight to FFing for a few reasons.

1. dont want to wait on the ground for others to jump with, rather just keep getting on load after load...and just FF since they can do it alone. The need it now mentality, and no patience to learn...or be organized. "I have to get up NOW, im gonna miss a load!"

2. FF is soo much cooler in there minds, no need to even bother dealing with those silly belly fliers.

3. Bad RW organizing. Nobody around to jump with, at their level, so they just to up and do solo FF'ing

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[crutch 0]

Chuck, you hit the nail on the head! I was on the 200-way back in '92, it was very well organized, but it still was very expensive (plus one week off work). I was invited to the 300-way, but it was going to cost about twice as much. My feeling nowadays is that I had my record, it was fun, not willing to spend the money required to do it again. There are plenty of capable skydivers out there, it has just gotten way too political and way too expensive for the average person to go.

blue skies,

art

[happythoughts 0]

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There are many, many capable primarilly-flat skydivers out there who simply don't want to spend the money going to camps and paying other people for their "OK" to get on those jumps.

I can understand why people wouldn't want to go to a camp. I do them because it is an opportunity to big-ways that I otherwise couldn't do.

From a different perspective, the organizer has to consider the other 60-or-so people who want it to work. If they include a "maybe" and it fails to build, then there is 60 other unhappy people who spent their time/money to be there also.

Second, a lot of people aren't as good as they think. I did a 22-way at Rantoul with 4 guys who told me "no problem at all" and never docked. The organizer wants some assurance of each persons skill. Participation at a camp can be a good "test drive".

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Likewise, there are plenty of capable big-way jumpers out there who get assed-up that they have to pay full price to get on those records while others get free rides.

I can understand that. I don't know where the line should be drawn. Plane captains? I can't answer that one.

To the original question, do you think that the flatflyer talent pool will shrink?

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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If I work for almost a year to organize a big way, state record, etc. should I pay myself full price.

If the answer is no, then where do I draw the line?

Do plane captains get a free ride?
Do video guys?
If I invite BJ, Ponce, Kate, Dan or Tony to come do they get a free ride?

I understand your position, but I also think there has to be some room to get the quality people you need to make the big way safe, fun and successful.

Blues,

You are only assuming that just because those people have been a part of previous attempts that they are the only people qualified to perform those functions and that is a mistake. Why exactly do you think a plane captain ought to get a free ride? If the person wants to be a part of a team effort, then let him lead by example and pay up just like everyone else. Likewise, inviting "known" 4-way and 8-way teams for free sets a bad precedence in my opinion as well. Where, exactly, on a 4-way competitor's resume does one find out whether or not they have long-dived do any formation? Bottom line: "record" attempt rosters (both freefly and flat fly) are primarilly filled with "good old boy" hookups and those with enough money to buy their way onboard.

FWIW, I love larger skydives, but have never been on anything bigger than a 2-point 60-way. I was invited to Chicago for those 300-way attempts, but balked when I found out how much it was going to cost as a "full price" invitee. When it becomes evident that everyone is making the same sacrifices to participate I (and many, many others likewise qualified) might become more interested in playing.

Chuck Blue
D-12501

[tigra 0]

Well, the line DOES need to be drawn somewhere. I believe on one recent record, the amount of people who were comped and the resulting EXTRA cost to those who were not was a little outrageous. No, I wasn't there, but its something I heard from more than one participant and invitee who declined because of the cost.

[Vallerina 2]

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but those people dont have to ruin all the fun.

They definitely don't ruin the fun, but when the reason I like big-ways is to "party" with lots of people in the sky, if they're not really "partying," then what's the point?

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hell you have been on some too....

Oh! I wasn't saying that people never have any fun doing big-ways (Rainbo has to be one of the most fun people to jump with!), but freefliers do tend to be more laid back and smile more even when it's a goal-oriented jump.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[kallend 2,150]

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***

I can understand that. I don't know where the line should be drawn. Plane captains? I can't answer that one.

To the original question, do you think that the flatflyer talent pool will shrink?

I've been with big name plane captains that did bugger-all, and with others who were excellent and worked with their plane's jumpers to maximize the chance of success. I won't name the bad ones, but Kate Cooper was the best captain I've been with.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[flyangel2 2]

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I don't do big-ways as much anymore because of the attitudes associated with it. Big-way flyers tend to be less fun than freefliers. If I'm looking around on a big-way, I won't see that many smiles.

I guess it all depends on who you are jumping with.

This last weekend I attended the MOAB Boogie and got to jump with some of my Colorado Buddies that I haven't jump with in a while. We had a great time joking around in the dirt dive, the plane, in freefall, and hanging out and socializing afterwards. The dives were pretty kick ass too

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[mouth 0]

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I'm not gonna argue with this. I mean, obviously not ALL flatfliers are old, but there is a definite trend towards freeflying. Although, this weekend we did a BFR for one of our freeflier's 1400th's!

Yeah, we did and very few of the FFers managed to get anywhere near the formation.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[kelel01 1]

Yeah, but the RW folks were the base. It's hard for the base to miss the formation.

[mouth 0]

Actually 2 of us were diving out and there was only Greg with the new jumper as linked base. I actually left after a FFer.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[kelel01 1]

Greg's a big show off.

Yeah, I never said I was a capable RW person . . . but that jump was fun, regardless. Like I said, it gave me just a little bit of perspective into what you were saying about big ways.

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