virgin-burner 1 #1 September 8, 2009 say you have a baglock, cutaway, and your main/bag gets somehow hung up. so your reserve is deployed into a ball of shit trailing behind you.. how common is that, and is that a rigging mistake or how could that happen?“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #2 September 8, 2009 Quotesay you have a baglock, cutaway, and your main/bag gets somehow hung up. so your reserve is deployed into a ball of shit trailing behind you.. how common is that, and is that a rigging mistake or how could that happen? The subject says the question is about an RSL. Are you saying that the RSL is what has hung up the main so it won't really leave? What sort of rig? I am interested in the design of the RSL. Vector-like? More "conventional" type? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #3 September 8, 2009 You seem to have something in mind but your question is so generic that I don't know what it is. And certainly isn't an RSL question as asked. How can shit happen? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3662154;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread If you truely ONLY have a bag lock, then the PC bridle and lines are clear. But you may have a line under a grommet, around a flap, around your leg, any version of a horse shoe, etc, etc. How can a true bag lock hang up? Poor maintainence by the owner of the three ring, (yes it's the owner responsibility), risers not compatiblie with the harness, more execution of emergency procedures, etc, etc. OR is your question about the non RSL riser hanging up and the other riser pulling the RSL and deploying a resere into the twoing main? If THAT'S your question it can and has happened, it's rare, and very rarely if ever a rigging error. Riser's break, cables can be the wrong relative/absolute length (about the only rigging error but I sometimes get rigs without the main or cutaway handle), user can fail to fully extract the cutaway cables, along with from above Poor maintainence by the owner of the three ring, (yes it's the owner responsibility), risers not compatiblie with the harness, more execution of emergency procedures, etc, etc. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #4 September 8, 2009 QuoteQuotesay you have a baglock, cutaway, and your main/bag gets somehow hung up. so your reserve is deployed into a ball of shit trailing behind you.. how common is that, and is that a rigging mistake or how could that happen? The subject says the question is about an RSL. Are you saying that the RSL is what has hung up the main so it won't really leave? What sort of rig? I am interested in the design of the RSL. Vector-like? More "conventional" type? wings-container, it looked like (to me, i dont know how an RSL is really supposed to look like behind the "magic of a reserve-packjob") that part of the "RSL-line" was snagged probably under the reserve riser covers. didnt look too close, but could there be velcro too!?“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #5 September 8, 2009 QuoteOR is your question about the non RSL riser hanging up and the other riser pulling the RSL and deploying a resere into the twoing main? If THAT'S your question it can and has happened, it's rare, and very rarely if ever a rigging error. that! it was a VERY fresh container too..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #6 September 8, 2009 Most bag locks are under enough tension - by the pilot chute - that they will leave when you pull the cutaway handle. My last three bag-locks disappeared as soon as I pulled the cutaway cables to arms's length. Ergo, bag-lock in-tow malfunctions are rare. As for main deployment bags hesitating before they leave the main pack tray, that is either a problem with mis-matched canopies or a weak pilot chute. Spring-loaded main pilot chutes often hesitated - in the low-speed air above stable jumpers. A common "fix" was for the reserve-side AFF Instructor to slap the main container. But that problem disappeared when spring-loaded main pilot chute fell out of fashion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #7 September 8, 2009 What's a VERY fresh container? It not only hit on you it stuck it's tongue down your throat?Is this a real event? If so was the main being towed by the non RSL riser or by the RSL? Did the jumper (you?) pull the cutaway handle all the way out and pull the ripcord as they should or rely on the rsl? What rig and what kind of RSL? Still not enough information. But, I've seen lots of MAIN rigging errors done by OWNERS that could cause an RSL to pull a reserve but entangle and tow the main. If the main was assembled to the container and the RSL installed and hooked up by the rigger then yes it might have been a rigging error. Or lots of other things. If you don't want to share enough information in public send a PM. edit, didn't see your other post before I wrote this. Let me think a minute I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #8 September 8, 2009 Quotesay you have a baglock, cutaway, and your main/bag gets somehow hung up. so your reserve is deployed into a ball of shit trailing behind you.. how common is that, and is that a rigging mistake or how could that happen? ..................................................................................................... The most likely cause of "hung up" is suspension lines entangling with the main container. That was a problem back in 1980 with free-stowed suspension lines and bulky container flaps. Two solutions came to mind. First, Para-Flite sent a free main deployment bag with every canopy they sold. Secondly, container manufacturers reduced snag points by reducing the aspect ratio of flaps and reducing the size of container stiffeners. Snagging problems reared their ugly heads again in 2000 when a quality control problem - at the Reflex factory" caused a thin suspension line to snag under a loose grommet, making it impossible for the main to fully-inflate or cutaway. The sad thing is that a German jumper died a month later in Eloy, with a similar snag problem - on a Javelin - that most riggers already when the "fix" to. This sparked "Grommet Mania 2000" with all the major manufacturers (Dolphin, Javelin, Reflex, Vector, etc.) issuing Service Bulletins to re-set grommets or add extra line snag prevention flaps. Fast forward to 2008, free-stowing suspension lines is back in fashion - among pond swoopers - and the Federation Francais du Parachutisme issued a Service Bulletin discouraging free-stowing suspension lines after they entangled with a side flap on a Javelin. Ho! Hum! Same problem, different year! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #9 September 8, 2009 It looked this way when? before a problem or after a problem? Did the main in tow occur or is this hypothetical? All RSL's have some way of stowing the lanyard. Some are tucked into pockets, some have plastic backer that is tucked into a pocket, and lots have velcro, including the wings. Also, on the wings the RSL ring around the ripcord is right next the end of the housing. If the housing isn't tacked tightly to the end the ring can slip over the end of the housing. In this case it wouldn't pull the reserve but could tow the main and allow a reserve deployed by pulling the ripcord to deploy. STILL not enough information. If there is a kink in the reserve ripcord it usually means the RSL pulled it at some point. Either this jump, if there was one, or on an earlier jump.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #10 September 8, 2009 sorry for not being very informative, first, all this RSL-stuff is some sort of blackbox for me, i dont jump one, i know how its supposed to work, but i dont really know HOW. secondly, the technical terms you're using are a bit confusing.. the right riser didnt release completely. on the left side of the rig, some line that i think connects the main to the (reserve?)RSL/ripcord, whatever, was stuck. i think i've seen velcro there. or it might have been under the reserve riser cover. there was a dozen people standing around there, and when i left, i got called by the MAN and got shit for being the guy it happened to, as usual. thats pretty much as accurate as i'm able to describe what i've seen. it didnt happen to me and i just had a quick glance as i was busy packing and with my friends visiting. pretty fresh means, i believe the rig to be from this year, so it hasnt been jumped more than a coupe of months. we have an anual packing-cycle for reserves, so i doubt it has been looked over more than the initial assembly.. edited to add: it looked like that way when the guy got back from the following outlanding. this could have had a very bad outcome! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #11 September 8, 2009 Quote sorry for not being very informative, first, all this RSL-stuff is some sort of blackbox for me, i dont jump one, i know how its supposed to work, but i dont really know HOW. secondly, the technical terms you're using are a bit confusing.. the right riser didnt release completely. on the left side of the rig, some line that i think connects the main to the (reserve?)RSL/ripcord, whatever, was stuck. i think i've seen velcro there. or it might have been under the reserve riser cover. there was a dozen people standing around there, and when i left, i got called by the MAN and got shit for being the guy it happened to, as usual. thats pretty much as accurate as i'm able to describe what i've seen. it didnt happen to me and i just had a quick glance as i was busy packing and with my friends visiting. pretty fresh means, i believe the rig to be from this year, so it hasnt been jumped more than a coupe of months. we have an anual packing-cycle for reserves, so i doubt it has been looked over more than the initial assembly.. edited to add: it looked like that way when the guy got back from the following outlanding. this could have had a very bad outcome! Maybe some question/answer will help. Was the cutaway cable pulled? Was the cutaway cable pulled clear of the housings? Was the right riser 3-ring released? Was the left riser 3-ring released? Was the reserve ripcord pulled? Was the reserve ripcord pulled clear of the housing? I understand that you might not know the answers to these questions. But without these answers, I'm still not sure I understand the question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #12 September 8, 2009 Quote Maybe some question/answer will help. Was the cutaway cable pulled? yes Was the cutaway cable pulled clear of the housings? i suppose, yes Was the right riser 3-ring released? no Was the left riser 3-ring released? yes Was the reserve ripcord pulled? not sure, i sure as hell would tough, i'm assuming so would the guy Was the reserve ripcord pulled clear of the housing? see above I understand that you might not know the answers to these questions. But without these answers, I'm still not sure I understand the question. right riser did not release and part of the RSL-thing was also stuck to the rig. either on the velcro or on the riser-cover of the reserve sorry again for not being very specific, i know i cant expect a proper answer if i dont know all the details.. when i walked away from it, all i could say is "another reason for me not to get an RSL!". i was pretty shocked. but that will not help i suppose.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #13 September 8, 2009 Quote Quote Maybe some question/answer will help. Was the cutaway cable pulled? yes Was the cutaway cable pulled clear of the housings? i suppose, yes Was the right riser 3-ring released? no Was the left riser 3-ring released? yes Was the reserve ripcord pulled? not sure, i sure as hell would tough, i'm assuming so would the guy Was the reserve ripcord pulled clear of the housing? see above I understand that you might not know the answers to these questions. But without these answers, I'm still not sure I understand the question. right riser did not release and part of the RSL-thing was also stuck to the rig. either on the velcro or on the riser-cover of the reserve sorry again for not being very specific, i know i cant expect a proper answer if i dont know all the details.. when i walked away from it, all i could say is "another reason for me not to get an RSL!". i was pretty shocked. but that will not help i suppose.. With those answers, it sounds to me like Terry's theory about the RSL ring hanging up on the end of the housing could be at least part of the problem. But that leads back to Terry's question about which side was doing the towing. If the non-RSL (right) side was under tension, it should have released if the cutaway cable had been pulled. But if the RSL (left) side was doing the towing, maybe there was not enough tension on the right side to release it, and it was just coming along for the ride. In the case we are talking about here, that only explains why the right side might not release. In this case, even if the right side had released, the left side might have remained hung up. So simply having had the right side release might not have really made any difference. With a bag lock, the tension on the risers can be very uneven. so at this point, with this information, it is impossible to tell if there really was a release problem with the right side 3 ring. The RSL lanyard on the Wings is similar to several other RSL lanyards, and has a shackle at one end (the end attaches to the riser), and a ring at the other end (the end that goes to the reserve ripcord under the top cover flap). If the ring had hung up on the end of the reserve ripcord housing, there would be evidence that the end of the housing was not properly secured to the rig. If the end of that housing is still securely and properly attached to the rig, it is unlikely that the RSL ring had been hung up on it. With regard to your comment about another reason to not have an RSL, not all RSLs are created equal. The Wings system has a single guide ring on the reserve top flap that helps ensure that the pin will be pulled in the right direction by the RSL. Some other rigs have a second guide ring that will prevent the RSL ring from snagging on the end of the reserve ripcord housing even if that housing is not as secure as it should be. On the Wings system, if the housing end is secured and configured properly, so that there is no housing extending past where the heavy cord is securing the housing to the rig, the ring cannot hang up on the housing. But it is important to inspect the end of the housing on a Wings to be sure that it is correct, or a hung up ring can certainly happen. If that housing is still secure and configured correctly, then we have to try to figure out another way to snag the RSL lanyard if we are going to hold it responsible. But I don't think it is likely that you can tell us enough to figure that out, since you've already told us all you know. Sorry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #14 September 8, 2009 The other very possible cause is that the RSL was connected to one of the 3 rings (probably one of the 2 smaller ones) instead of the RSL ring on the riser. This would cause the 3 ring release to not be able to undo itself and release the riser properly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #15 September 8, 2009 there are not many wings around here, the housing-thing might make sense in that regard; do you know how well that is described in the manual by chance? i dont know where he got it from, i can only assume..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #16 September 8, 2009 If you download a copy of the Wings manual, and go to the section that talks about the RSL, there is a picture of the top end of the RSL housing. I have a manual dated 27 February 2009. In that manual the stuff I am talking about is on page 16. The picture in the lower left of that page shows what it looks like under the flaps at the top of the rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #17 September 10, 2009 >how common is that, and is that a rigging mistake or how could that >happen? It happened at least once on the older Racers that I can remember. If the RSL slips over the end of the ripcord housing it can "lock" there. Likewise if the RSL is routed incorrectly (like under a reserve riser) that can also happen if your luck is bad that day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #18 September 10, 2009 that dude's luck wasnt SOOO bad that day, if anything, he had a functional reserve above his head.. i dont want to imagine what COULD OF happened if not! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #19 September 10, 2009 I went offline so hadn't answered earlier.. But you SHOULD imagine what wwould happen. That's what keeps us on our toes. The biggest question is why the right side didn't release. Without more details we can't diagnose it further. Without knowing if the RSL pulled the reserve or not, and why the right side didn't release (blocked, snaged, 'fixed' or not enough tension) tough to figure out. But, there is NOT enough information to implicate an RSL as causing a problem. I don't care for the Wings container not having another guide ring. And likely this wasn't a rigger error, although it could have been. It may have been a 'rigging' error by the owner/user. Or there may have been no error and the back lock just didn't have enough drag.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #20 September 10, 2009 i'll see if i can find out more next weekend..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #21 September 10, 2009 This IS an important event. A three ring not releasing, if in fact the cable was pulled, should be explained. It should have been obvious to who ever looked at the rig why the RSL was 'stuck'. Lessons about operator error, design, and/or rigging (rigger or user) may be learned or reenforced.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
