voltage 0 #1 August 6, 2008 I have been following the discussion about the King Air forced landing in Canada. Seatbelts in that case would probably have made a huge difference in the degree of injuries for the passengers (skydivers). I've always felt uneasy to take the seatbelts of at 1000 feet AGL because I am not sure I want to leave the aircraft at that altitude (which is most probably lower when I really get out, because of delays getting out, aircraft lossing altitude fast in engine-out cases etc.) The other issue is that as soon as the door opens all seatbelts should be off I've seen door open on takeoff with everybody strapped in. A few weeks ago I have been sitting right beside the door with seatbelts off when an instructor opened the door some inches (for farting or airconditioning, I don't know). My pilotchute handle (freefly handle) was about 2 inches from the door opening and flapping in the wind the way I was sitting. I was polite and kept my hand on my handle for the while time the door was opened only that little crack, because I didn't like the idea of my PC potentially escaping and me having to follow through a door open only a few inches Recently the place where I jump at the moment (Skydive Orange) has placed a sign in the aircraft that seatbelts are to stay on until 1500 feet. Of course the door has to be closed until then, too. Great move, thank you! Maybe other DZ might consider that, too? A question to close: While in a King Air or Otter seatbelts are an absolute must for obvious reasons (lots of room to accelerate in case of crash) what do you think of seatbelts in Cessna 182 / 206? There is not that much room to accelerate especially when it is packed, so for the seatbelts to be bring any advantage they would surely have to be donned tightly? Have there been any accidents where seatbelts or lack of them (would) have changed the outcome of the accident on that jumpships? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 August 6, 2008 There have been lots of cases where seatbelts would have made the difference. The Perris Otter crash is the first one that jumps to mind. There have been a slew of Cessna crashes where no one was wearing seatbelts but its usually hard to be 100% sure if someone would have still been hurt or killed in those crashes if their seatbelts had been on correctly. One thing that annoys me about most seatbelt useage is no one ever snugs them up, they just fasten them and leave a lot of slack in the belt. In the case of a crash would you rather travel 3 feet or 6 inches? As important of a question is would you rather have everyone else able to travel 3 feet in your direction or 6 inches? Tighten up the seatbelt to get rid of the slack and then once you take it off extend it back out.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 21 #3 August 6, 2008 QuoteThe other issue is that as soon as before the door opens all seatbelts should be off. Correct! QuoteA few weeks ago I have been sitting right beside the door with seatbelts off when an instructor opened the door some inches (for farting or airconditioning, I don't know). My pilotchute handle (freefly handle) was about 2 inches from the door opening and flapping in the wind the way I was sitting. I was polite and kept my hand on my handle for the while time the door was opened only that little crack, because I didn't like the idea of my PC potentially escaping and me having to follow through a door open only a few inches. That is exactly what I do, but I should not need to. QuoteRecently the place where I jump at the moment (Skydive Orange) has placed a sign in the aircraft that seatbelts are to stay on until 1500 feet. Of course the door has to be closed until then, too. Great move, thank you! Maybe other DZ might consider that, too?Quote They should. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #4 August 6, 2008 QuoteI've always felt uneasy to take the seatbelts of at 1000 feet AGL because I am not sure I want to leave the aircraft at that altitude ... You're free to make that decision for yourself, to wear your seatbelt to as high an altitude as you like. Nobody is going to force you to take it off. However, you shouldn't dictate to others that they must wear theirs above 1,000', if that's their personal choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites voltage 0 #5 August 6, 2008 Quote There have been lots of cases where seatbelts would have made the difference. The Perris Otter crash is the first one that jumps to mind. There have been a slew of Cessna crashes where no one was wearing seatbelts but its usually hard to be 100% sure if someone would have still been hurt or killed in those crashes if their seatbelts had been on correctly. My point for asking this question was: where do you draw the line? In the beginning of my jumping career I have boarded any plane regardless of seatbelts. Today after having considerably more knowledge I would not board a bigger plane without effective seatbelts anymore, especially a KingAir. But what about 182s and 206s ? I did most of my initial training in Germany, out of a 206 without seatbelts. I have jumped from at least one other 182 (also in Germany) without seatbelts. So if I decide to always insist on seatbelts in Cessnas that would rule out two of the nearest dropzones to my home. Opinions, please? Would you stop jumping the Cessnas without belts even if it means to considerably reduce your skydiving? Not jumping at a dropzone where many of your friends are jumping? Or are you not happy but "tolerate" flying in Cessnas without seatbelts? If so, just because you want to jump and take your chances or do consider the use of seatbelts in Cessnas not absolutely necessary? Agree with you on always keeping the seatbelts tight! edit because of spelling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,121 #6 August 6, 2008 >You're free to make that decision for yourself, to wear your seatbelt to >as high an altitude as you like. Actually, you're not. You MUST take your seatbelt off before the door is opened, for the safety both of yourself and everyone else in the aircraft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #7 August 6, 2008 Quote>You're free to make that decision for yourself, to wear your seatbelt to >as high an altitude as you like. Actually, you're not. You MUST take your seatbelt off before the door is opened, for the safety both of yourself and everyone else in the aircraft. So are you suggesting that seatbelts should not be worn if there is no door? I know the legal answer, I am asking your opinion on safety. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #8 August 6, 2008 The whole thread made me question my practise of not putting on the belt in a 182. Very few jumpers at my DZ use the belts. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skydivesg 7 #9 August 6, 2008 When it comes to Otters. If you sit on the floor and then reach back to get the belt which is 12-18 inches behind you the belt is actually of minimal use. Most crashes end with the load shifting forward toward the cockpit. The body will first travel the 18 inches to get to the attachment point and then another 18 inches to actually get to the end of the belt for a total of three feet. This is enough travel to pulverize the pelvis of the person behind you. Which was one of the major causes of death in the Perris crash of 1992. The Otters with benches do provide significant additional safety in that the belts are lap belts and they loop around from each side. More in the traditional style. The seats will also absorb a great deal of the downwards force generated from a belly first crash. I've survived two crash landings on take off as a jumper. One totaled the plane. They are scary. I hope to never have one in a floor seating Otter. Tighten up those belts kids........ it could be a bumpy ride.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #10 August 6, 2008 This thread and not all the accident reports from the last 5, 10, or 15 years? Why do skydivers need to experience things first hand to learn old lessons? Why does an accident have to happen in Canada to get Canadians thinking about seatbelts? We're no different anywhere else. We always need it to happen at home before it really sinks in. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #11 August 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteI've always felt uneasy to take the seatbelts of at 1000 feet AGL because I am not sure I want to leave the aircraft at that altitude ... You're free to make that decision for yourself, to wear your seatbelt to as high an altitude as you like. Nobody is going to force you to take it off. However, you shouldn't dictate to others that they must wear theirs above 1,000', if that's their personal choice. Even though it's me those others are going to kill when they go flying through the cabin? I think a dropzone policy of at least 1500' is reasonable. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites voltage 0 #12 August 7, 2008 Thanks for your first hand information. Obviously if seatbelts are there they should be on of course and as tight as possible. Was one of the crashes you experienced in a Cessna? How did the seatbelts help or not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #13 August 7, 2008 QuoteWas one of the crashes you experienced in a Cessna? How did the seatbelts help or not? I've been in a 182 crash. Seatbelts helped. In my case we lost the engine at 200ft-250ft with 4 jumpers. The pilot had no where to go in front of him (industrial park) and had to turn to a cow pasture. The plane got bent up, but stayed upright but the landing was still "motivating." If not for the correct actions of the pilot and us staying put due to the seatbelts keeping us where we needed to be, people would have been hurt.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #14 August 7, 2008 A lot of people are of the opinion that a seatbelt isn't going to make a lick of difference in a plane crash. I just never gave it a lot of thought. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brettski74 0 #15 August 7, 2008 QuoteYou're free to make that decision for yourself, to wear your seatbelt to as high an altitude as you like. Nobody is going to force you to take it off. However, you shouldn't dictate to others that they must wear theirs above 1,000', if that's their personal choice. I think what you're trying to say is that *he* doesn't have the authority to dictate that to others. On the other hand, the pilot in command has the authority to require that you wear a seatbelt when directed to do so and the dropzone management and/or aircraft owner can require this through the authority of their pilots while in command of the aircraft. It's your personal choice as to whether you ride in that airplane if you don't like the requirements regarding seat belts. That goes both ways - ie. you can choose not to because you don't like the draconian seat belt wearing policies, or you can also choose to not ride in because of a lack of such policies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites repcool 2 #16 August 8, 2008 A seatbelt saved my ass in a forced landing. Thats all I know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skydivesg 7 #17 August 8, 2008 Neither of the crashes were in a Cessna. One was in a Westwind in Eloy. Sitting on the floor. Luckily, we came to an abrupt stop in the desert after stalling both wings just 30 to 40 feet off the ground. Very close to cart wheeling the aircraft. Several injuries, none life threatening. The other was in a Skyvan at Skydive Chicago for a world record attempt. We went off the side/end of the runway into the corn. No injuries. I believe that seat belts in a Cessna are very important (all aircraft actually). They will help to keep you from moving about the cabin during an abrupt stop. Just remember that the belts should be aft of the person they are trying to stop. And that most crashes end with the load (jumpers) shifting toward the nose of the airplane. When is the last time you saw pictures of a crash with the nose/engine in tact? It's usually the tail sticking up. Thus the load shifts forward.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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JohnRich 4 #4 August 6, 2008 QuoteI've always felt uneasy to take the seatbelts of at 1000 feet AGL because I am not sure I want to leave the aircraft at that altitude ... You're free to make that decision for yourself, to wear your seatbelt to as high an altitude as you like. Nobody is going to force you to take it off. However, you shouldn't dictate to others that they must wear theirs above 1,000', if that's their personal choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voltage 0 #5 August 6, 2008 Quote There have been lots of cases where seatbelts would have made the difference. The Perris Otter crash is the first one that jumps to mind. There have been a slew of Cessna crashes where no one was wearing seatbelts but its usually hard to be 100% sure if someone would have still been hurt or killed in those crashes if their seatbelts had been on correctly. My point for asking this question was: where do you draw the line? In the beginning of my jumping career I have boarded any plane regardless of seatbelts. Today after having considerably more knowledge I would not board a bigger plane without effective seatbelts anymore, especially a KingAir. But what about 182s and 206s ? I did most of my initial training in Germany, out of a 206 without seatbelts. I have jumped from at least one other 182 (also in Germany) without seatbelts. So if I decide to always insist on seatbelts in Cessnas that would rule out two of the nearest dropzones to my home. Opinions, please? Would you stop jumping the Cessnas without belts even if it means to considerably reduce your skydiving? Not jumping at a dropzone where many of your friends are jumping? Or are you not happy but "tolerate" flying in Cessnas without seatbelts? If so, just because you want to jump and take your chances or do consider the use of seatbelts in Cessnas not absolutely necessary? Agree with you on always keeping the seatbelts tight! edit because of spelling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #6 August 6, 2008 >You're free to make that decision for yourself, to wear your seatbelt to >as high an altitude as you like. Actually, you're not. You MUST take your seatbelt off before the door is opened, for the safety both of yourself and everyone else in the aircraft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #7 August 6, 2008 Quote>You're free to make that decision for yourself, to wear your seatbelt to >as high an altitude as you like. Actually, you're not. You MUST take your seatbelt off before the door is opened, for the safety both of yourself and everyone else in the aircraft. So are you suggesting that seatbelts should not be worn if there is no door? I know the legal answer, I am asking your opinion on safety. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #8 August 6, 2008 The whole thread made me question my practise of not putting on the belt in a 182. Very few jumpers at my DZ use the belts. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydivesg 7 #9 August 6, 2008 When it comes to Otters. If you sit on the floor and then reach back to get the belt which is 12-18 inches behind you the belt is actually of minimal use. Most crashes end with the load shifting forward toward the cockpit. The body will first travel the 18 inches to get to the attachment point and then another 18 inches to actually get to the end of the belt for a total of three feet. This is enough travel to pulverize the pelvis of the person behind you. Which was one of the major causes of death in the Perris crash of 1992. The Otters with benches do provide significant additional safety in that the belts are lap belts and they loop around from each side. More in the traditional style. The seats will also absorb a great deal of the downwards force generated from a belly first crash. I've survived two crash landings on take off as a jumper. One totaled the plane. They are scary. I hope to never have one in a floor seating Otter. Tighten up those belts kids........ it could be a bumpy ride.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #10 August 6, 2008 This thread and not all the accident reports from the last 5, 10, or 15 years? Why do skydivers need to experience things first hand to learn old lessons? Why does an accident have to happen in Canada to get Canadians thinking about seatbelts? We're no different anywhere else. We always need it to happen at home before it really sinks in. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #11 August 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteI've always felt uneasy to take the seatbelts of at 1000 feet AGL because I am not sure I want to leave the aircraft at that altitude ... You're free to make that decision for yourself, to wear your seatbelt to as high an altitude as you like. Nobody is going to force you to take it off. However, you shouldn't dictate to others that they must wear theirs above 1,000', if that's their personal choice. Even though it's me those others are going to kill when they go flying through the cabin? I think a dropzone policy of at least 1500' is reasonable. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voltage 0 #12 August 7, 2008 Thanks for your first hand information. Obviously if seatbelts are there they should be on of course and as tight as possible. Was one of the crashes you experienced in a Cessna? How did the seatbelts help or not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #13 August 7, 2008 QuoteWas one of the crashes you experienced in a Cessna? How did the seatbelts help or not? I've been in a 182 crash. Seatbelts helped. In my case we lost the engine at 200ft-250ft with 4 jumpers. The pilot had no where to go in front of him (industrial park) and had to turn to a cow pasture. The plane got bent up, but stayed upright but the landing was still "motivating." If not for the correct actions of the pilot and us staying put due to the seatbelts keeping us where we needed to be, people would have been hurt.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #14 August 7, 2008 A lot of people are of the opinion that a seatbelt isn't going to make a lick of difference in a plane crash. I just never gave it a lot of thought. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #15 August 7, 2008 QuoteYou're free to make that decision for yourself, to wear your seatbelt to as high an altitude as you like. Nobody is going to force you to take it off. However, you shouldn't dictate to others that they must wear theirs above 1,000', if that's their personal choice. I think what you're trying to say is that *he* doesn't have the authority to dictate that to others. On the other hand, the pilot in command has the authority to require that you wear a seatbelt when directed to do so and the dropzone management and/or aircraft owner can require this through the authority of their pilots while in command of the aircraft. It's your personal choice as to whether you ride in that airplane if you don't like the requirements regarding seat belts. That goes both ways - ie. you can choose not to because you don't like the draconian seat belt wearing policies, or you can also choose to not ride in because of a lack of such policies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
repcool 2 #16 August 8, 2008 A seatbelt saved my ass in a forced landing. Thats all I know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydivesg 7 #17 August 8, 2008 Neither of the crashes were in a Cessna. One was in a Westwind in Eloy. Sitting on the floor. Luckily, we came to an abrupt stop in the desert after stalling both wings just 30 to 40 feet off the ground. Very close to cart wheeling the aircraft. Several injuries, none life threatening. The other was in a Skyvan at Skydive Chicago for a world record attempt. We went off the side/end of the runway into the corn. No injuries. I believe that seat belts in a Cessna are very important (all aircraft actually). They will help to keep you from moving about the cabin during an abrupt stop. Just remember that the belts should be aft of the person they are trying to stop. And that most crashes end with the load (jumpers) shifting toward the nose of the airplane. When is the last time you saw pictures of a crash with the nose/engine in tact? It's usually the tail sticking up. Thus the load shifts forward.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
