bertusgeert 1 #1 January 20, 2005 So I see the thread on scary jumps, and it reminded me to ask the question. A friend and I had a discussion about this, and he, as a former jump-pilot, was upset that I didn't recognize the dangers at hand. Me and my buddies would get in the 206, take off and get to about 2000 or 3000 feet before we would intermittently hear the stall warning go off. THis raised some concern with one of my buddies, but back on the ground he couldn't back up why he was scared, simply that the warning is there for a reason. Whenever this one pilot flew, the same thing would happen all the way to altitude, full load or light. The pilot did have extensive training (Embry Riddle) and a good few hours. My former jump pilot buddy said that riding the stall warning means you are about to stall, (sure) and if you are climbing, with a bunch of weight in the back, it would be extremely hard if not impossible to break the stall, and it could result in a spin, and eventually death. Now that you have all the facts, what would you have done in this situation? Is it really THAT dangerous? --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 January 20, 2005 The stall warning is a simple lever/switch on the leading edge of the wing, if it gets pushed up it sounds the warning. So if its "bumpy" on the way up, the warning can go off all the time due to the turbulence. Other then that, learn the CG of the AC and instead of worrying about what group goes first, load according to the CG. The CG in a cessna is more important. Especially since there are only 4-6 people going at a time, the exit seperation can be worked around with creative spotting and/or multipul passes. That's better then having the CG all sorts of fucked. If the CG is way off and the engine quits, guess what? The pilot CAN NOT recover the AC no matter how far he/she pushed the yoke forward.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #3 January 20, 2005 Right, interestingly enough we were studying stalls all day in class yesterday. If you have the back end heavier than the engine, yeah. That would be all kinds of 'not good' if you stall. The wing can't develop any lift if it can't situate itself down to create any ariflow over the front of it. On a positive note, my instructor told us to make sure we find a flight instructor that will put us in a spin at altitude, just to show us how to get out of it...and then allow us to practice that maneuver. I'm kinda a-skeered, but it will make me a better pilot. ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #4 January 20, 2005 Dunno about a 206, but a King Air I once jumped always had a screaming stall alarm when there were 4-6 people floating... Scared the hell outta me, as it was while I was still in AFF... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akjmpplt 0 #5 January 20, 2005 The stall horn in Cessna's is supposed to sound at about 10 knots above stall speed. There are times during flight when it is not unusual or unsafe to hear the stall horn...takeoff and landing for instance. As someone else posted turbulence can also make the horn sound, but that should be intermittent. As for stall recovery and not being able to recover. If the CG is so far aft to prevent stall recovery it is doubtful that you would survive the takeoff. I've flown a lot of loads in a 206 and I've done a lot of number crunching on the CG since I have no wish to die in an aircraft crash. It is very difficult to load a 206 with jumpers so that it is out of the CG envelope. Perhaps with a couple of NFL linemen in the back and nothing but girls up front you could have a problem, but with normal jumpers it isn't a big issue. However, as ya'll start moving around getting ready to exit the CG does tend to move aft since you move aft a little to check and adjust your gear. Put your knees where you butt was and we'll be fine. I fly P206s with the door up front like a 182...on the cargo door 206 I can see where an aft CG could occur with folks floating, jamming the door, etc. As for this guy with the horn going off at 2 - 3000 feet, if he was climbing that steep someone needs to whack him/her alongside his head. That slow of a climb overheats the engine and results in a longer climb to altitude along with the increased risk of flying at near stall speeds. Now everyone get a gear check so you don't tear my tail off.SmugMug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #6 January 20, 2005 The alarm comes before the onset of the stall. Don't let that Embrey Riddle stuff fool you That craft and this sport rely on a more than healthy dose of judgement. Look up the triple fatal accident of one of their students, his friend and his girlfriend when he was back in Portland on holiday brake and how low he was when buzzing the house with a rented aircraft. Flight safety INT and JFK jr is another one. Well unless some cockpit hanky pankey was going on. Good training is good, judgement is mandatory! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #7 January 20, 2005 Did you get to spin when going for your PPL? ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #8 January 20, 2005 Spin training isn't required for the PPL. It's so much fun though... go do it with another instructor if yours won't. I did it in a Piper Tomahawk... the instructor kept having me look back to make sure nothing had broken off. The rudder would just slap against the tail like crazy through the whole spin so the instructor wouldn't do anything more than a 1-turn spin. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hexadecimal 0 #9 January 20, 2005 Question for those of you who have been through flight school... Are there bail out rigs for instructor and student? Maybe that's a stupid question... but I just figure since some of the things you do during school are potentially dangerous, it might be a good idea. I only ask because I'm planning to start taking lessons this year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #10 January 20, 2005 No, for flight training, the only time you need them is for acrobatic flight, which isn't required for your license. I don't know if it is still true, but you can be a captain on a 747 and have never spun an airplane. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #11 January 20, 2005 Quote Spin training isn't required for the PPL. It's so much fun though... go do it with another instructor if yours won't. I did it in a Piper Tomahawk... You are a braver man than I: http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001206X00857&ntsbno=CHI94FA097&akey=1"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 January 20, 2005 Quote No, for flight training, the only time you need them is for acrobatic flight Or for flight with the door of in an AC without a bulkhead seperating the cabin and the cockpit.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #13 January 20, 2005 Quote Or for flight with the door of in an AC without a bulkhead seperating the cabin and the cockpit.Wink Hopefully that won't happen during their intital flight training. In the T-34 I used to fly, we wore them regardless of what we were doing. There are a bunch aircraft with bail out rigs that don't do acro or drop jumpers. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #14 January 20, 2005 I'ld have moved my fat ass to the front of the plane whilst screaming, "We need more power Captain!" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #15 January 20, 2005 Quote In the T-34 I used to fly, we wore them regardless of what we were doing. Unfortunately, a couple of guys in Houston didn't wear them in the T-34s they were flying at the civilian "air combat school" when their T-34s folded up on them. The latest one even had complied with the wingspar AD.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #16 January 20, 2005 Quote I don't know if it is still true, but you can be a captain on a 747 and have never spun an airplane. Derek Not true any more. ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akjmpplt 0 #17 January 20, 2005 In the US spins are required only for Flight Intructor ratings. As the poster said, you can be a 747 Captain and never spun an airplane.SmugMug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #18 January 20, 2005 Quote Quote In the T-34 I used to fly, we wore them regardless of what we were doing. Unfortunately, a couple of guys in Houston didn't wear them in the T-34s they were flying at the civilian "air combat school" when their T-34s folded up on them. The latest one even had complied with the wingspar AD. Are you saying this happened more than once at the same school???"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #19 January 20, 2005 Quote Are you saying this happened more than once at the same school??? Yup, 2 fatal accidents 13 months apart. Same model of AC, same accident. I honestly don't think that the FAA has a firm understanding on what is making T-34s fold up, since the second crash had complied with the AD.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akjmpplt 0 #20 January 20, 2005 Quote Quote Unfortunately, a couple of guys in Houston didn't wear them in the T-34s they were flying at the civilian "air combat school" when their T-34s folded up on them. The latest one even had complied with the wingspar AD. Are you sure they didn't have parachutes? The flying they were doing would require a parachute be worn. From the info I've gotten at least one of the occupants was incapacitated by the wing when I came off. More likely they had parachutes on but weren't able to exit to use them.SmugMug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #21 January 20, 2005 Quote More likely they had parachutes on but weren't able to exit to use them. Seriously? The people I talked to stated they were flying w/o e-rigs.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mx757 4 #22 January 20, 2005 The stall warning is a simple lever/switch on the leading edge of the wing, if it gets pushed up it sounds the warning. the pipers and some other aircraft are like this but most cessna 150/52 172 etc its just a simple reed type valve at leading edge wing. when a stall about to happen the airflow pulls away and vacume (suction) makes the stall horn go off... try it sometimes on ground go up to it and suck and you'll hear the stall horn go off. don't say I didn't warn you abou all little bugs in there either. also there phillips screws next too it loosen then and you can adjust stall waning + or - few knots. best stall warning is the controls, [on light aircraft not 767 etc ] they start getting mushy, slow to respond.. thats your stall coming... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #23 January 20, 2005 I heard they did, but couldn't/didn't get out because the wing came over and crushed the canopy area. Either knocked them out or prevented an emergency exit. For the type of flying they do, unusual attitude recovery, etc, they have to waer bail out rigs. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20041216X01995&key=1 Nothing about it here. I remember reading something about the wing hitting the cockpit though. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #24 January 20, 2005 http://www.donwsmith.com/AirAces.html Has a pic and the front seater is wearing a rig. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #25 January 20, 2005 Quote In the US spins are required only for Flight Intructor ratings. As the poster said, you can be a 747 Captain and never spun an airplane. Just looked that up, right. My bad. Apparently you need only 'describe what you would do' in a spin situation for commercial. I was confusing the req's for a flight instr./commercial test. Be quite a while 'til I get there anyhoo. ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
