Pilot chute in tow or horseshoe mals - fix problem or cutaway ?

[sky_rat 0]

I have been thinking lately what I would do if I had a pilot chute in tow or horse shoe malfunction - some of the scariest mals.

Regarding a pilot chute in tow mal:

I have watched the Breakaway video and on the pilot chute in tow clip the skydiver reaches behind him and starts tugging on his bridle to try and pull the pin.

Would you do this or immediately cut away ?

How high is the risk that your reserve could get entagled in your main pilot chute ?

Regarding a horseshoe mal:

I cant exactly remember the Breakaway video about this mal, but I 'think' the skydiver might cut away and then try to pull the main risers off, to clear the mess for a clean reserve deployment.

Again, would you do this or immediately cut away ?

How high is the risk that your reserve could get entagled in the mess behind you ?

[popsjumper 2]

I am highly disappointed that, with 500 jumps, you don't yet have a plan for these mals...but at least you are asking and that's a good thing.

Pilot Chute in Tow
Here, at this school, we teach students to deploy the reserve. Another viable option is to cutway and then deploy the reserve. We tell them to never reach around behind to clear anything. You are going to get many responses regarding the pros/cons of both actions so get ready for it.
Either way, IMHO, it's going to be somewhat of a crapshoot as to an entaglement.

As for experienced jumpers, you will probably get many responses saying, by all means, reach around and try to manually pull the pin. You will probably get some responses saying to delay for a while to see if it clears itself.

Horseshoe
What we teach is clear the second point of contact and if you can't, cutaway and deploy the reserve...with emphasis on high-speed mal with little time to clear.
Risk of entanglement is again, a crapshoot...too many factors involved to say one way or another.

Please note (and we teach the students) that anytime you are trying to fix anything, altitude awareness is a key factor and could very well be the deciding factor on a good or a very poor outcome.

There are valid reasons why these two mals are a skydiver's worst nightmare...the outcome probability could be good or bad ragardless of what you do.

Keep in mind...it will be YOUR decision on what to do. The idea is to have a plan, practice it and perform it in a timely manner if it becomes necessary.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kkeenan 14]

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I have been thinking lately what I would do if I had a pilot chute in tow or horse shoe malfunction

These are malfunctions that must be dealt with very quickly, as they usually place you at low altitude and high speed. The only way to successfully execute EPs in time is to have a fully-formed plan already worked out in your mind and when you recognize the mal, instantly run your pre-programmed EP. If you take time to recognize the mal, think about the options, explore the relative pro-con analysis, formulate a plan of action, etc., you will run out of time and die. It's that simple. It has, unfortunately, been demonstrated many times.

There is a lot to think about with these malfunctions. You need to do all of that thinking on the ground. You need to do all of the soul-searching that comes with evaluating tough choices during a time when you can calmly think about those choices. Then, when you have decided on a certain course of action for a particular set of circumstances, commit that set of procedures to memory and commit yourself to doing that without stopping to second-guess.

You can read all about what the actual choices are. The important thing is doing that thinking and deciding on the ground, not passing 1500' with doubts about what to do. The fact is that any malfunction could occur on any jump. I would advise you not to put on a parachute again until you have settled this in your mind and know what you are going to do if faced with this on your next jump.

Kevin

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[billvon 3,123]

>Would you do this or immediately cut away ?

Personally I would make one attempt to clear it then cutaway/reserve. I recommend that newer jumpers immediately cut away and open their reserve, since it's a high speed mal and it is VERY easy to lose track of altitude messing with a PC in tow.

>How high is the risk that your reserve could get entagled in your main pilot chute ?

Low to moderate. Another risk (if you cut away first) is that your reserve gets tangled in your main risers. Solution to this is to maintain your riser covers well, so they retain the cutaway risers.

>Again, would you do this or immediately cut away ?

I would make one attempt to clear the horseshoe (point entangled limb at the sky, push fabric/lines off) then cutaway/deploy the reserve. I recommend that newer jumpers do this as well, since odds of entanglement are much higher than in the case of a PC in tow.

[DougH 270]

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

How many pilot chute in tows have resulted from properly mantained equipment (good condition kill line of proper length, burr free pin, proper sized and manf. pilot chute, proper closing loop length) combined with proper operation (cocked pilot chute and properly routed bridle).

My rehersed plan is to try to manually clear it one time, then go straight to reserve. Cutaway isn't in my procedures because I am low and fast, and I already burnt time trying to clear it once. I can deal with a two out if that happens as a result.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DJL 235]

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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

How many pilot chute in tows have resulted from properly mantained equipment (good condition kill line of proper length, burr free pin, proper sized and manf. pilot chute, proper closing loop length) combined with proper operation (cocked pilot chute and properly routed bridle).

My rehersed plan is to try to manually clear it one time, then go straight to reserve. Cutaway isn't in my procedures because I am low and fast, and I already burnt time trying to clear it once. I can deal with a two out if that happens as a result.

You need to realize the amount of force that a pilot chute puts on your pin. I'm sure you're all sitting in a chair right now. Try reaching behind the chair with both hands and connecting a single finger together. Now pull with all of your strength. How much force were you able to exert? Now go drive down a highway at 120 mph, throw your pilot chute out the window and try to hold onto it. No, don't actually do that but how just thinking about this will make you understand the forces involved. If the PC didn't pull the bag out then your arm bent at an awkward angle probably isn't going to do anything.

Go to your reserve.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Andy_Copland 0]

OK lets just say for example you have a PC in tow and your pin needs 60lbs of pressure to open, your PC is a ragged out old f1-11 piece of crap on its last legs and is only pulling 50lbs?

The reach around (chuckle) would pull the pin.

Not that id even try it, but that argument was a little lame.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[DJL 235]

Yeah, if you have a ragged out POS-PC, feel free to give yourself a reach-around. And then go get a new PC.

Now see this thread for some data on what your PC is supposed to do:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=581766;search_string=pc%20force;#581766

Your example of a ragged out PC was even lamer... (oh snap)

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Andy_Copland 0]

I dont see anything wrong adding another 10lbs-15lbs or so of force to help things along if they're a heads up jumper in total calm control of what they are doing.

Obviously not for everyone but each to their own when it comes down to it.

Simply saying "this pilot chute pulls has 500lbs of force" is irrelevant. Apply enough force and something will happen.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Andy_Copland 0]

Also with no statstics (which i hate anyway) in todays world of collapsible PC's i would imagine the most prominent cause of a PC in tow would be an uncocked PC. Making my point even more valid.

Just speculation but thats my 2 cents.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[DJL 235]

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Also with no statstics (which i hate anyway) in todays world of collapsible PC's i would imagine the most prominent cause of a PC in tow would be an uncocked PC. Making my point even more valid.

Just speculation but thats my 2 cents.

Most PC in tows that I personally have witnessed or been told about were because of a misrouted bridle or grommets getting hung up on each other, the remainder were from some other hangup in the main packing tray and the reserve leaving the rig allowed the d-bag to come out, I've also been told that an uncocked PC "should" still deploy the canopy but that sounded pretty weakly worded. If an uncocked PC were paired with a minor hangup then there's another possible scenario.

Anyway, my security blanket is that I'm accounting for most situations by going straight to the reserve. I just don't feel like trying to dig my hand up my butt when I'm getting to AAD firing territory.

Edit to include Nick's sentiment. Also, if I'm chancing a reserve/main entanglement, I'd rather keep the 1000 ft I would have lost by trying some kind of scuba diver hand swipe.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Ether 0]

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Most PC in tows that I personally have witnessed or been told about were because of a misrouted bridle or grommets getting hung up on each other, the remainder were from some other hangup in the main packing tray and the reserve leaving the rig allowed the d-bag to come out.

What about a poorly-folded PC resulting in the bridle tightening in a loop around the PC? I've seen many methods for folding a PC, and some methods seem to make this entirely probable (especially if the spare bridle is left loose in the BOC rather than folded inside the PC, or say if the bridle loops around itself inside the folds).

Looking for newbie rig, all components...

[NickDG 23]

For me it's a quick look to see if it's a garden variety PC hesitation, if not, no trying to fix it, just cutaway/reserve.

I'd rather save the remaining time on the bottom end for going at things with my hook knife . . .

NickD

[jakee 1,601]

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You need to realize the amount of force that a pilot chute puts on your pin. I'm sure you're all sitting in a chair right now. Try reaching behind the chair with both hands and connecting a single finger together. Now pull with all of your strength. How much force were you able to exert? Now go drive down a highway at 120 mph, throw your pilot chute out the window and try to hold onto it. No, don't actually do that but how just thinking about this will make you understand the forces involved. If the PC didn't pull the bag out then your arm bent at an awkward angle probably isn't going to do anything.

Well that's a lovely bit of thinking, but as someone who actually has manually pulled the pin (with minimal effort) with a PC in tow, I'd say there are a few steps mising in your logic.

I'm not going to recommend it to anyone, and there are a fair few scenarios in which it could make things worse, but no need to pretend it's impossible.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[hackish 8]

I think after you've got that first 50-100 jumps you have enough awareness of your altitude so you have a good idea of how much time remains. I had a PCIT because it was poorly cocked. Just reached behind me and unpinned it for a normal deployment without even thinking about it.

With a horseshoe I could see reaching back and pulling the PC. At least if that results in a baglock you've got something to chop away.

I think chopping a PCIT is plain dangerous. Since the bag is still in the rig and the risers should have remained undisturbed you may be setting up for your risers entangling the reserve if it decides to begin deploying at the wrong time. This is quite possible as the freebag leaves because the pressure on the main container will be reduced. Pulling the cutaway will do nothing unless the PCIT clears itself.

-Michael

[skyjumpenfool 2]

This truly is dangerous ground! First, make sure you are aware of what you're doing. Talk to your instructor and ask him/her to help you develop a plan of action. Rehearse the plan and follow it, as rehearsed, if you have a problem.

That being said I will give you two examples to think about. Both happened in the last month.

1. After an RW jump, a friend had a pilot chute in tow at about 2500 ft.. He chose to cut away first, then deployed his reserve. He watched his main come out after the reserve had partially deployed and go through the reserves risers. Fortunately, the main did not fully inflate and he managed to gather it back up and control it. He landed fine and all is well.

2. On a recent CRW jump, I had a pilot chute in tow. Since I was at 13,000 ft., I had options. After taking a good look at it, I decided to roll slightly to the left and give the bridal a tug with my right hand. It came off and I had a good deployment. In fact, I managed to get back up and close on the stack.

Depending on your experience level, Ask your instructor why both of us did the wrong thing??

The point I would like to make is that both of us had a plan that we followed. Make sure that altitude awareness is part of your plan.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[DJL 235]

What were the circumstances of your PCIT and what are the steps missing in my logic?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jakee 1,601]

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What were the circumstances of your PCIT and what are the steps missing in my logic?

Bridle knotted round the hackey and choked off most of the pilot chute. Perfectly servicable equipment, just a 'shit happens' on deployment.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DJL 235]

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What were the circumstances of your PCIT and what are the steps missing in my logic?

Bridle knotted round the hackey and choked off most of the pilot chute. Perfectly servicable equipment, just a 'shit happens' on deployment.

Same as a collapsed PC. I personally, would check alti, yank out the pin, cut the whole thing away, ensure I'm freed from the mess, and not feel bad about sucking it down. But I'm a ninja.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[sky_rat 0]

I have listened to people on here, watched Breakaway (again!) and come to the following conclusions for each mal...


Pilot Chute In Tow
I would wait to see if it clears itself whilst watching my alti and if nothings happened by 2000ft (I normally pull at 3500ft) I would cutaway and pull my reserve.


Horse shoe
In the event that my pin has come out before pulling the pilot chute (resulting in a horseshoe where the second point of contact is the pilot chute in the BOC), I would make one attempt at pulling the pilot chute, then cutaway and pull my reserve.

In addition to this, I now pack my pilot chute in a way thats recommended by Brian Germain.

Not so long ago I came accross his excellent method of packing a pilot chute, which has the potential to clear itself from a horseshoe mal (if the pilot chute is the second point of contact).

Using this method means that in the event of a horse shoe mal, the force required to extract the pilot chute via the bridle is alot less, which is why it has the potential to clear itself.

If it does not clear itself then this packing method still makes it easier to manually extract the pilot chute, even though the bridle is being pulled by the main bag / canopy.

See the following link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axCeYlY_6io

[Andy_Copland 0]

I wouldnt just fall with a PCIT watching my alti, you should at least try looking over your shoulder to make sure its not caught in your burble, that way air "should" spill over a shoulder, grab it and take it away.

I know this is more for spring loaded PC's but what the heck, cant hurt unless you roll over and wrap yourself in bridle..

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[hackish 8]

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Pilot Chute In Tow
I would wait to see if it clears itself whilst watching my alti and if nothings happened by 2000ft (I normally pull at 3500ft) I would cutaway and pull my reserve.

The point I was trying to make above is that cutting it away under these circumstances may increase the chances of mal'ing your reserve. I leave this for open discussion but here is what I think.

With a PCIT the bridle may be hung up before pulling the pin or it may have pulled the pin and be unable to pull the bag free from the container. The main risers should be happily tucked in the rig and out of the way from fouling anything.

When the reserve tray opens and the freebag leaves then there is a lot of pressure relieved from the main. This could cause the PCIT to clear.

The reserve is engineered and packed to open faster than a main. So if it leaves at the same instant as your main bag then it should still win the race.

If you chop the main then pull the reserve and the PCIT clears then you've got an inflating reserve with 2 now cutaway risers and some length of line whipping around. It is possible that they could choke off your reserve by catching the slider or entangle the lines in some undesirable fashion.

Alternatively if you did not cutaway the PCIT and it does clear the reserve should still beat it in deployment. I would hedge my bets on an orderly main deployment after the reserve and at worse fly a 2-out.

While it is still possible that the main will deploy into your reserve and ruin your day, I believe the chances are smaller.

Of course the above could be completely wrong but I'm interested to see any discussion/opinions about it.

-Michael

[dgw 8]

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Horse shoe
In the event that my pin has come out before pulling the pilot chute (resulting in a horseshoe where the second point of contact is the pilot chute in the BOC), I would make one attempt at pulling the pilot chute, then cutaway and pull my reserve.

Any thoughts on using the 'flex' pin arrangement to reduce this possibility? I see them on Tandems, S/L rigs, and I recently heard an older skydiver suggesting to a young free flyer that a flex pin was the way to go for container security.

[lintern 1]

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Any thoughts on using the 'flex' pin arrangement to reduce this possibility? I see them on Tandems, S/L rigs, and I recently heard an older skydiver suggesting to a young free flyer that a flex pin was the way to go for container security.

When you say 'flex' pin, do you mean teflon cord (normally yellow in colour)?

I asked my rigger about teflon cord after my partner had her main bag and lines fall out on the plane during run in, because her closing pin came out

Scary but luckily someone recognised the problem in time.

My rigger said that with teflon cord you can get ridges in the cord which can stop the cord coming out becuase it gets jammed in the closing loop.

You also need to replace the cord quite regulary.

He said that as long as the closing loop is in good condition and not too loose, then its best to stick with a closing pin, rather than change to teflon cord.

[skydiverek 63]

Check this thread and replies from Bill Booth on the Flex Pin:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=113117#113117