commuter train derails in LA

[ltdiver 3]

Refresh this link to get the updates. This happened just a few minutes ago. At 6:11 am this morning. At least one fatality so far. 6 ambulances on scene and more coming.

http://www.nbc4.tv/traffic/4130788/detail.html

Small picture below.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[turtlespeed 226]

Was it an elevated train?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

Was it an elevated train?

No. It looks like a commuter train and a Union Pacific freight train. Looks like it was a tremendous hit. They're trying to figure out just -how- this happened!

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[kingbunky 3]

cnn is saying it was two commuter trains that sideswiped each other...

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

cnn is saying it was two commuter trains that sideswiped each other...

I'm sure they're still trying to figure things out. The pictures show a commuter train and freight train...however it might be something different like you say.

I have to shove off to work now, but I'll be back on-line to check the whole story later.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[kingbunky 3]

up to 9 dead now. from cnn:


GLENDALE, California (CNN) -- A commuter train crash and derailment killed at least nine people, including a sheriff's deputy, on Wednesday outside Los Angeles, fire officials said.

A spokeswoman for the commuter line, Metrolink, said a Metrolink train hit a parked car at a railroad crossing, ran into another Metrolink train and crashed into a parked Union Pacific train.

Los Angeles Sheriff Lee Baca said authorities were speaking with the driver of the vehicle and believe it was intentionally parked on the tracks.

"It didn't appear that the vehicle had stalled," Los Angeles Sheriff Lee Baca told The Associated Press. "It appears that it was deliberately placed there."

<--snipped-->

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[ahegeman 0]

Surprising that the driver of the car is even alive, much less talking.

---------------------------------------------------------------
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'.
--Dave Barry

[Chiquita 14]

From what I saw on the news it is believed that he was trying to commit suicide, but at the last minute he changed his mind and got out of the vehicle and left it on the tracks. Now he will be facing homicide charges for at least 10 people, along with several other charges I am sure. The news said that there was now 10 dead and about 100 sent to hospitals.

There are some strange people out there.

"Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity"

[Michele 1]

From the latest reports, it's up to 200 people to hospitals.

From what I understand, Metro Train A (push mode) hit the Jeep Cherokee. The first car full of passengers, derailed, and sideswiped Metro Train B (I don't know if it was in push or pull mode). Train B derailed at least one car (the report wasn't clear), and hit a parked Freight train.

10 people dead, several listed critical.

This is the 4th derailment involving push mode Metros in the last 4ish years. Glendale (this one), Burbank, San Fernando, and one other (again, I didn't catch the location). All have hit street vehicles. Not all of the vehicles were deliberately placed on the tracks.

The man in the Jeep Cherokee had tried to kill himself twice in the last 24 hours before parking his SUV on the tracks. Once by stabbing himself in the abdomen and once by slitting his wrists. Apparently, he was attempting a third time, when he changed his mind and left the vehicle apparently moments before impact.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[ltdiver 3]

The animation on the news is chilling.

This timeline give a slideshow of the events.
http://www.nbc4.tv/slideshow/news/4133515/detail.html?qs=1;s=1;dm=ss;p=news;w=320

On review, it doesn't save enough time and money in using the 'push-pull' method if when using the 'push' method puts people's lives in danger.

You know, when the commuter train is using the 'push' method they discourage people from being in the 'lead' car because of just this kind of increased danger. An engine weighs 175 tons. A passenger car only weighs 70 tons. When in the 'push' mode the engine is pushing the lighter cars and will keep on pushing even if the 'front' car hits something. And the people who may be in the 'front' car are right there at the scene of the impact.

It doesn't take too much time to turn the train around and have the 'pull' method used throughout the entire send and return route. It's cheaper than 10 dead and 200 seriously injured!

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[skyyhi 0]

Wow, I used to ride that glendale train. Metrolink trains use the Southern Pacific tracks to transport commuters all over Southern California. It is a faster and more "elegant" way of traveling than the bus. This is a tragedy

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[Michele 1]

Quote

It doesn't take too much time to turn the train around and have the 'pull' method used throughout the entire send and return route. It's cheaper than 10 dead and 200 seriously injured!

Wholeheartedly agreed.

And even when not comparing it to the (incalculable) cost in lives, it's not expensive nor time consumptive. And it's been known for a long time that push mode is far more dangerous than pull mode.

Horrible all the way around.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

It doesn't take too much time to turn the train around and have the 'pull' method used throughout the entire send and return route.

Want to explain to us how you're gonna throw a U turn with a train?


I happen to know a little bit about this. Got to be a fly on the wall in some meetings when this type of train was introduced in California, and I've worked with volunteer railroads. The problems doesn't lie with the equipment, but rather access to the tracks, and railroad right of ways.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

Quote

It doesn't take too much time to turn the train around and have the 'pull' method used throughout the entire send and return route.

Want to explain to us how you're gonna throw a U turn with a train?


I happen to know a little bit about this. Got to be a fly on the wall in some meetings when this type of train was introduced in California, and I've worked with volunteer railroads. The problems doesn't lie with the equipment, but rather access to the tracks, and railroad right of ways.

They used to use the 'U-turn' method before the method of the push-pull. They knew that the 'new' method increased the risk.

IMO, the value of human life is FAR greater than saving a few minutes of time. Or don't you agree?

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[diablopilot 2]

It's a train. It goes foward, and backward on a track. There are no turntables or switching yards in the stations, and they don't usually go off roading with them......

The outcome of the incident may very well have been the same if the engine had been at the front.


Should we put seat belts on busses too?

Maybe everyone on airliners should wear parachutes.

There is a point at which you have to be willing to accept risk. If those that owne property around railroad right of ways did not put so much pressure on local goverments to develop, this wouldn't be an issue as access would be difficult.

The push pull issue is a non-issue that some media jerk-off has drummed up to make this more interesting. As if 10 deaths were not enough.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

The push pull issue is a non-issue that some media jerk-off has drummed up to make this more interesting. As if 10 deaths were not enough.

I don't agree.

The metro-rail line locks the front car in the 'push' method and won't open the car until the rest of the cars are full. Then, they still discourage passengers from riding up there. If they choose to, they rope off the first 8 rows of seats to prevent people from riding in the -very- front of the train.

Why do they go to such lengths if there isn't increased risk?

It is too cost prohibitive to put up bridges for the train to ride upon, thus saving the posibility of cars driving onto the tracks. Too many crossings (120 in just San Diego alone) to put up fences.

What would -you- do to prevent this kind of tragedy in the future?

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

they rope off the first 8 rows of seats to prevent people from riding in the -very- front of the train.

They likely do that to keep gawkers from oveloading the front car as "everyone wants to look out the front windows. (the one small one).

Quote

What would -you- do to prevent this kind of tragedy in the future?

Protect the railroad's right of ways, as they should be. Of course if we did that there would be pissed off land owners and city goverments moaning about fence, and signal and gate costs.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ahegeman 0]

Diablopilot is right, you don't just whip a train around. It requires either a wye connection or loop track, both of which take up a lot of real estate which will probably have to condemned to have the current owners thrown off, or cutting off the locomotive consist and running it around the train on a siding, and even then you may be faced with the problem of a locomotive facing the wrong direction, and you'll probably need to do an air test. All of those options consume track capacity and keep other trains from running for a pretty good chunk of time. In an operation like Metrolink's that is not always feasible, and would add cost and delays that might discourage riders, putting more people back on congested and even more dangerous roads.

I used to live in Claremont but for the life of me can't remember much about those trains. Do they typically operate with 1 locomotive or 2?

---------------------------------------------------------------
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'.
--Dave Barry

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

The push pull issue is a non-issue that some media jerk-off has drummed up to make this more interesting. As if 10 deaths were not enough.

FYI. All of these accidents of metrorail vs car on the tracks resulted in 2 of them -only- the driver dieing, the 3rd the driver lived. No derailment. No fatalities on the train. All of these incidents occured with the metrorail train in the 'pull' position.

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/2665158/detail.html

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/2488206/detail.html

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/2386933/detail.html

Now compare these to the one today with the train in the 'push' position.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[ltdiver 3]

Of course it takes time and real estate. Never said it didn't.

You mentioned 2 ways of getting the engine back to the front of the train. Both are doable. Ever hear about 'eminent domain'?

Or perhaps someone will come up with a less costly, more desirable solution.

These metrolink trains run with only 1 locomotive. Perhaps two, one at each end, would be a possible solution.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[ahegeman 0]

Eminent domain is also known as condemnation, which yes, I have heard about, and in fact mentioned it in my post. That doesn't make it politically possible. Metrolink has had eminent domain attempts turned back by neighborhood opposition in the past.

Perhaps someone will come up with a less costly, more desireable solution, but its not Metrolink's fault that it hasn't happened yet.

As I said, all of these solutions will add cost and delays while reducing the fluidity of the network. A railroad is a highly constrained operation, and one train taking an extra 15 minutes to clear a section of track in a high-volume network can easily cause a cascade which will consume hours by the time all is said and done. Its not as low-impact or as easy as you think.

The changes required to ensure no push operations would easily run into the hundreds of millions of dollars, and all the shuffling and rejiggering of trains required would add delays and reduce the fluidity of the operation, potentially driving riders away. I'm surprised that even in the push operation an SUV derailed the train. That much money can be far better spent than protecting against such a low-probability event.

If I remember correctly, Metrolink sees over 30M annual passenger trips. If even a small percentage of that is driven back onto the roads by cost or hassle increases on the Metrolink network, than even more people will die. Of course, nobody will ever hear about it when someone gets killed on the freeway because it isn't as impressive on the news.

---------------------------------------------------------------
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'.
--Dave Barry

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

That much money can be far better spent than protecting against such a low-probability event.

Then how would -you- promote that they do this?

What is the cost of a human life?

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[ahegeman 0]

People like to screw with trains. Since time immemorial, children have been putting pennies on train tracks and adults have been killing themselves by forcing some poor train crew to watch their demise.

Passengers demand fast, cheap, and reliable service. If they don't get it, they'll go to another mode.

There is no way to design a perfectly safe transportation system that people will actually use. Train travel is incredibly safe, environmentally friendly, and reliable compared to other forms of transportation. How many people die on LA freeways every year?

You want an answer on how to make sure nobody dies on board a Metrolink train ever again? Here's the only one that'll work - shut it down. Other than that, I'm at a loss.

---------------------------------------------------------------
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'.
--Dave Barry

[ltdiver 3]

This metrorail line has been in operation since 1992 and until today, to my knowledge, no commuter on the train has died from a car vs metrorail train collision until today.

Minimize this by going back to a lead engine in the front of the cars for each route. Whether by bringing the engine to the front by a system like you've described, or by putting one at either end to allow for that added protection.

I don't feel -near- the sympathy for those who tried to beat the train by running through the guard arms or don't acknowledge the red lights. I -do- however cringe when people completely -not- at fault are killed.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

I -do- however cringe when people completely -not- at fault are killed.

The direct your energies at locking up drunk drivers for 10 years at a time......

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.