skykittykat 0 #1 February 26, 2005 I feel strongly about this. When Dr Kenny went in, someone posted about the timing of the post reporting his demise. Having had a pm conversation about another fatality at Skydive Arizona (which happened exactly a week after Dr Kenny) and nothing was posted, the person said that Betsy was probably being cautious about posting this fatality because of previous posts about her timing. My reply to this was: Bollox - Betsy NEVER posts before the family has been informed. She is in a catch 22 position in that Eloy is the biggest dz in the world and a lot of skydivers know people that jump there. She has to post before the grapevine starts working and the chinese whispers gets out of hand. Unfortunately, this does not make a good learning environment. Liz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 February 26, 2005 I know what thread you are talking about. In Dr. Kenny's thread someone was complaining about her posting information before ant investigation was going so there was no real info to be learned yet. The posts are now gone. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skykittykat 0 #3 February 26, 2005 QuoteThe posts are now gone. Thank goodness for that. Liz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benforde 0 #4 February 26, 2005 QuoteI feel strongly about this. When Dr Kenny went in, someone posted about the timing of the post reporting his demise. Having had a pm conversation about another fatality at Skydive Arizona (which happened exactly a week after Dr Kenny) and nothing was posted, the person said that Betsy was probably being cautious about posting this fatality because of previous posts about her timing. My reply to this was: Bollox - Betsy NEVER posts before the family has been informed. She is in a catch 22 position in that Eloy is the biggest dz in the world and a lot of skydivers know people that jump there. She has to post before the grapevine starts working and the chinese whispers gets out of hand. Unfortunately, this does not make a good learning environment. Liz Agreed, that was really messed up, I trust BB for her accuracy and her double checking of every available information. I do have questions... who decides what person is going to post an incident like this? and who decides when to do it? It's a huge responsibility and the chances to misinform are high... and visibly people are ready to bark at who ever does it, hard. btw people... stop forcing people to put those terrible posts online... just quit leaving us, we love you! Benji // Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #5 February 26, 2005 Whoo Hoo!! I get hateful PM's on this topic now! This is so much fun! Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #6 February 26, 2005 First of all, this post should get moved to S&T so it's valuable content doesn't get buried in the volume of posts in Bonfire. To those trying to gain some insight on the value of accurate information posted promptly, please take the time to read the following guidelines, which appear above the text box when you choose "Post New" in the Incidents Forum: QuoteIncidents Forum Posting Guidelines: Before you start a thread in the Incidents Forum or reply to post please consider the guidelines below: The purpose of this forum is to report, discuss and learn from fatal and serious non-fatal incidents. Most, if not all, new threads here should start with the report of an actual incident. General safety issues or small and potential incidents should be posted to the Safety and Training forum. Incidents include: malfunctions, cutaways, wraps, collisions, crash landings etc. I trust everyone will use their good judgment before starting a thread or disposing of advice. In case of a fatality please post your condolences to the Talkback forum and keep this forum for discussion. Now to speak to the issue of timing . . . People want to know - curiosity is human nature. There are many reasons for it, all of which vary from person to person. The reasons why we seek the information are not as important in the context of the Incidents Forum as why we choose to post the information. Some folks post information just to keep the rumor mill grinding out its often tangled and confusing pile of information. Some post so the facts of the incident as they are known at the time of the post are known early on, and can be used to build the pyramid of constructive information, hopefully ending in a solution. The majority of readers of that forum, from my experience, share some things in common: 1) they all want to learn from the incident, and want others to learn as well - they care about the safety of the sport; 2) they all find the known facts of the incident useful (timing notwithstanding). There has been a raging debate over speculation vs. conversation based on fact. You can search the forums for my comments on that - I won't address that here. Facts are the most valuable information we can glean from an Incident Report. You will likely NOT get them from press clips, as we have seen they are initially highly inaccurate and devoid of useful details. They are best posted by someone who is directly related to the incident - an eyewitness, a DZO, the reporting S&TA, an investigator. If they are posted right away, the rumor mill becomes unnecessary The person who criticized Betsy for posting Dr. Kenny's tragic death promptly did so in a forum designed for discussion of facts surrounding the incident for the benefit of the sport. His direct bereating of her did not contribute to the momentum of that discussion, and gave every appearance of personal bias. It effectively hijacked the thread and despite the careful choice of words it was in many people's opinion a personal attack. I join Liz in thanking BB for her diligent service reporting the valuable facts, and hope that she will consider doing so again in the future. Lastly, I pray that none of you would ever lose someone close to you as a result of a skydiving accident. Thanks to all of you who have kept me safe these 20 years.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QuickDraw 0 #7 February 26, 2005 Was this from the person who posted after your fatality post today ? -- Hope you don't die. -- I'm fucking winning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #8 February 26, 2005 Don't know. I was gone from the fourms most the day and I see really good questions still posted there. I'm only the messenger here. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #9 February 27, 2005 Just for information purposes and to those that want to continue down the path of what should or should not be done in posting incidents. I will say it isn’t up to you (the individual) to decide on timing, or what is appropriate. Drop zones have policy regarding the reporting of fatalities. Nothing goes out until the proper authority has notified the family. As to reporting to media, cases differ and may require a different action. For instance, lets same someone that is high profile in the sport expires. Lets also say that someone on the DZ during the time of the incident takes it upon themselves to generate a phone call to the family of the expired jumper prior to proper notification (from the authorities)..phones start rigging at manifest and now its chaos and mayhem. In an instance such as above mentioned it is thought better to get what we know out. (Then again the timing isn’t anyone's business but the DZs)nothing goes out until the family has been notified...period. In a different scenario, say one where the fatality is a foreign national, well that would take a longer period to notify the family since it has to go through the government. As to posting FAA findings and or coroner reports, well sometimes those can take 3 weeks or more. Skydive Arizona took the position several years ago that it was better to put the facts out as we know them and update later if warranted. It was felt that it was better to do this than to allow conjecture, innuendo and speculation run wild. That is what has been done in the past. Today, Skydive Arizona it still is one of the very few that even post fatalities this site. The timing....NO TIMING is good. We will continue to post to the fatality database. Lastly, I would like to offer...if you go looking for faults you are sure to find them. You can malign a person for their posting, or you can take an opportunity to try to learn something. On a personal note, if one doesn’t happen to agree with drop zone policy, maybe it is because they do not have all of the information needed to understand why a drop zone makes the decisions that they do. Maybe you don't need to!? Maybe it is your responsibility to as questions from the right people. Dunno. Seems to me if one would rather hide behind a screen name (that isn’t as anonymous as one might think!) in the end, it is nothing more than an act of a coward. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 7 #10 February 27, 2005 Betsy, You and Skydive Arizona should be applauded at your stance on information involving incidents. If more DZs did this there would be a lot less "rumor mill" and conspiracy theory discussions. And I hope you never have to use those policies ever again.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
