"Borrowing" an internet connection (comp geeks)

[GoatBoy 0]

I just got a new laptop yesterday and was playing with it at work and was able to pick up a unprotected access point (no WEP setup) and get on the net through it. What I was wondering is if there is any possible problems with doing this?

Flying Hellfish #31
"I'm not allowed to talk about it till after the trial"
www.SkydiveTecumseh.com

[SkiD_PL8 0]

This has been discussed several times here. Basicly you are doing nothing illegal. It is more of an ethics question, you are using someones bandwidth that they pay for. Personally I will use an open network without thinking twice, other think it is a horrible thing to do.

Greenie in training.

[nathaniel 0]

For starters, don't consider your data secure if you use an insecure AP. It would be pretty straightforward for anyone else in your vicinity to observe your network traffic. So, if you were to visit dropzone.com it might be possible for someone to get your cookie & start using your account.

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[bmcd308 0]

>>So, if you were to visit dropzone.com it might be possible for someone to get your cookie & start using your account.<<

Wow. I had never imagined that computer hackers could do something so insidious. Maybe now I'll stop telling the IT guys at work that we can't afford a firewall.

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[Girlfalldown 0]

Quote

For starters, don't consider your data secure if you use an insecure AP. It would be pretty straightforward for anyone else in your vicinity to observe your network traffic. So, if you were to visit dropzone.com it might be possible for someone to get your cookie & start using your account.

nathaniel

So someone could be playing with my cookie right now and I wouldn't even know it?!

--------------

(Do not, I repeat DO NOT, take my posts seriously.)

[SkiD_PL8 0]

Quote

For starters, don't consider your data secure if you use an insecure AP. It would be pretty straightforward for anyone else in your vicinity to observe your network traffic. So, if you were to visit dropzone.com it might be possible for someone to get your cookie & start using your account.

nathaniel

That is not true. In theory it would be possible but it is far from strightforward. Whoever is hosting the AP wouldn't have a very hard time of seeing what sites you are visiting but as far as snatching cookies and things that is still not "strightforward"

Greenie in training.

[Jimbo 0]

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asicly you are doing nothing illegal.

Does that mean if I leave the door to my house unlocked that you are doing nothing illegal by coming inside? Are you doing anything illegal if you come in and start using my resources? (e.g. food, water, heat, etc . . .)

Quote

you are using someones bandwidth that they pay for.

Doesn't that make you a thief?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[SkiD_PL8 0]

The FCC has ruled on it man. It is the same as listening to your neighbors radio if they have it turned up to loud as far as the law is concerned.

Greenie in training.

[nathaniel 0]

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In theory it would be possible

Here's software you could use.

"Now witness the power of this fully operational battle station!"

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[leroydb 0]

your cookie eh? cholate chip or macadamianut?

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[billvon 3,100]

>Does that mean if I leave the door to my house unlocked that you
> are doing nothing illegal by coming inside?

It's not illegal to use the light coming out your door, if I stay on my own property.

>Are you doing anything illegal if you come in and start using my
> resources? (e.g. food, water, heat, etc . . .)

Again, if your sprinkler is tossing water over the fence into my yard, it's not illegal for my grass to use the water. If you send an 802.11 signal into my house, it's not illegal for me to use it.

>Doesn't that make you a thief?

No more so than listening to someone else's radio makes you a thief. If they don't want you listening they can turn it down.

[Jimbo 0]

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>Doesn't that make you a thief?

No more so than listening to someone else's radio makes you a thief. If they don't want you listening they can turn it down.

Poor examples all around, Bill. "Borrowing" someone's 802.11 signal consumes resources that belong to them, while the light, and radio examples you provided earlier do not. The sprinkler example is interesting because you're consuming resources that belong(ed) to someone else, yet at the same time you're not depriving them of their intended use of that resource.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[billvon 3,100]

>"Borrowing" someone's 802.11 signal consumes resources that
>belong to them, while the light, and radio examples you provided
> earlier do not.

A light has a certain lumen rating; if someone else uses those lumens they are not available to you. But if you get all the light you need from the light typically you won't care if some goes over the fence to your neighbor. Similarly, a broadband connection has a certain bandwidth, and at least here the cost is the same no matter how much you use. If your neighbor uses less than is noticeable by you typically you won't even know.

Of course, if your neighbor uses all your bandwidth (or uses all the light from your outdoor flood) it's rude and quite noticeable. The onus is on him not to do that.

>The sprinkler example is interesting because you're consuming
> resources that belong(ed) to someone else, yet at the same time
> you're not depriving them of their intended use of that resource.

Exactly. It is rude (and, I think, wrong) to use any free resource such that it negatively impacts the person/company providing it. But if you are using excess that they aren't using anyway, I see nothing wrong with it.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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It's not illegal to use the light coming out your door, if I stay on my own property.

My using the light coming out your door does not decrease the amount of light available within your home.

Packet traffic to/from the internet reduces the bandwidth available to you and may count against monthly quotas which trigger higher pricing or a cut-off.

You putting your sprinkler on the property line and me taking the hose off so I could wash my car is a better example.

[SkiD_PL8 0]

It all comes down to the broadcast issue. If you are using a wireless router you ARE broadcasting a radio signal. Anyone with the proper reciever to recieve that signal has the right to do so according to the FCC. It is not up for debate, the legality of it has been determined.

If you guys want to argue over ethics go for it. Everyone has different ethics and morals so everyone is going to have their own opinion. Personally if I am somewhere away from my WAP I will use an open network. In turn I try not to use excessive ammounts of bandwidth, both to keep from hindering their use of their connection and to keep the WAP open to the public.

Greenie in training.

[WrongWay 0]

*playing devil on your left shoulder....*

Come on, kid, DO IT, who's gonna know....who's gonna care?

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[SkiD_PL8 0]

*playing angel on your right shoulder....*

Come on, kid, DO IT, who's gonna know....who's gonna care?

Greenie in training.

[billvon 3,100]

>My using the light coming out your door does not decrease the amount
>of light available within your home.

By Jove, you've done it! You've found a way around the laws of thermodynamics! Congratulations - you're set for life (as long as you can demonstrate that light fixture that supplies the same amount of lumens to any number of areas, that is.)

[flyingferret 0]

You can make all the analogies you want about sprinklers, elephants, or blue cheese...bill is 100% legally accurate on this.

This debate annoys the bejeebers out of me, and it has been had before. You can start by researching here http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_00/47cfr15_00.html

I dont have time to go find all the links on something I have already researched. However, this is the summary:
It has been legally challenged and sustained that the FCC regs treat 802.11 access points as broadcast devices and as such it is completely legal to listen to an open broadcast.
Additionally, it has challenged by universities and also sustained that as devices regulated by the FCC, landlords do not have the legal right to control the placement of such devices by clients. This was raised by SMU and others, who wanted students in housing to use only a fee based school WAP, and not share their own ISP WAP.
Additionally, it has been upheld that if you access illegal content on an open/shared connection, you are responsible, the connection owner is not liable for your actions.

Accessing private data, cracking WEP keys, etc are all completely different issues, what we are discussing is simply access to the wireless network. Many people cannot seperate the issues.

This issue is often misunderstood and with a little research you even find cases of police harrasment of people in public using open library WAPs. It is a typical case of uninformed technopeasant scare mongering. People don't understand the legalities and start talking.
The regulations regarding radio devices are there for good reason, and this new technology does not change the need to keep radio unrestricted.

If you do not want to share your AP, it is a 15 minute exercise to lock it down.

Personally, I think it is borrowing a commodity, and I refrain from it unless I am traveling and in a pinch for a signal, and then I run several diagnostic utils the whole time I am connected.

But as far as arguing about it....you are beating a dead horse, and you don't even know the definition of horse.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.