Toggle to unTwist?

[mjosparky 4]

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Brian Germain is also a HIGHLY skilled and experienced canopy pilot and skydiver. What do you think he'd tell you if he knew your experience level, WL, and canopy choice?

He was continenced about it, unlike most of you.

"With only 122 jumps, I am sure it is hard for you to convince others that your unorthodox actions were correct. However, I have always subscribed to the philosophy that, if it worked, it was one of the correct possible answers.

You can tell them that Brian Germain agrees with your choice.

Glad to hear that you saved yourself a repack. Remember to always open high and know your altitude when you implement any fix. If it doesn't work, you still want to have enough time to get number two out.

Blue Skies
Brian"

That's what constructive is.
Sinke

As someone else has posted, I believe you are not going to listen to anything but what you want to hear. You say that Brian knew you WL went he sent you the above email. Well attached is his own recommendations on WL and you are not even close. I could care less if you screw yourself into the ground under a canopy that is smarter than you are. But have the balls to carry the weight yourself. Don’t try and lay the blame off on someone else. It is your decision and yours alone. Brain nor any other jumper with half a brain would condone you jumping a canopy loaded at 1.6.

As for your question, it is something that should only be attempted by very experienced canopy pilots at very high altitudes. A highly loaded canopy can/will lose altitude at an alarming rate in a spin. If the spin spools up very rapidly you can be in G-loc in 2 to 3 revolutions. But like I said it is your call. Just don’t bull shit yourself into believing that you understand the dangers you are exposing yourself to.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tetra316 0]

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WTF people. His canopy choice has nothing to do with his post. There is an interesting discussion to be had here and you guys are trying to turn it into the weekly newbie-wingloading post.

Yes, his canopy choice is too much too soon. That doesn't mean his idea is immediately invalid or not worth discussing.

(I'm not talking to people like Fast, who actually addressed the issue and then added an admonishment about OP's canopy choice.)

Yes it does because he choose to list his wingloading along with his question. Therefore, to answer his question without responding to all the information given (wl) is to accept his choice as okay which it so obviously is not!

At least that's my opinion.

[linebckr83 3]

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Obviously nobody taught me this procedure.
What do You think, why is that?

Honestly, I don't think anyone taught you this procedure because it is fairly advanced, and for advanced scenarios. In FJC, which wasn't all that long ago for either of us, the topic on line twists is kicking out. At the preferred lower WL's for new jumpers, the canopy will still fly straight as a dart, leaving time to kick out. I think if you gradually stepped down as experience came, you would have gotten the advice from others who have used it successfully....in time.

Also, to a beginner who is loaded highly for his experience level, spinning line twists can be a pretty frightening thing. How easy would it be for alot of newbs to apply toggle input to the wrong toggle in that scenario, especially as you gain momentum and speed up? Then if the shit hasn't already hit the fan, it's about to. Just seems like a risky and uneeded approach to teach to the vast majority of new jumpers who downsize gradually.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[NickDG 23]

>>Glad to hear that you saved yourself a repack.
Admittedly, although I like him personally, I've never drank the Germain Kool-Aid or been a groupie. And the above is a bit scary to be telling anyone no matter what number of jumps they have. On the other hand he might not have said that in public and that shows the folly of posting a personal e-mail.

Jumping canopies in fast configurations, either by size or wing loading, is always going to be somewhat risky. And those risks can be handled by certain jumpers. But certainly not by all jumpers. The issue now is going small and fast is seemingly the "normal" line of progression for new jumpers.

When we first noticed, in the mid 1990s or so, that people were beginning to die under these canopies, from bottomed out swoops, late avoidance turns, spinners fought with too long, off field obstacle collisions, and mid-air collisions, we all just shook our heads. And a lot of old hands in the sport, at the time, thought these canopies should be banned outright.

But the word eradication soon turned to education. And we all bought into it. And it made sense at the time. Besides, I was happy with my Stiletto and no one was going to make me give it up, until I realized some years later the extra performance wasn't worth the extra cutaways.

So the final solution became, "take a class." But as we look back at the last twenty years we have to ask ourselves if all the deaths have been worth it?

I'm not worried, like some are, about canopy deaths bringing about more FAA regulation. The FAA never did understand the mechanics of how people used to hit the ground in freefall. But dying on a botched landing is something they do understand, after all, pilots in airplanes do it all the time. So I doubt they give it much thought.

But the same thing has occurred with newer jumpers. Dying under a good canopy has become a somewhat normal course of events. It wasn't that long ago when landing safely was the ultimate parlor trick of us skydiving magicians, but now it seems every few weeks one of the wizards can't find the rabbit in the hat.

And when a canopy death occurs newer jumpers will ask how it happened, while older jumpers just shake their heads. The former is still hoping there's a lesson to be learned while the former sees there is no answer, just a slow steady parade of death.

So Brian can keep selling his books, advanced canopy classes can continue becoming quite the little cottage industry, and the canopy manufacturers can keep playing like last year's racehorse is this year's dog. But sooner or later we have to consider that "education" isn't the entire answer. And while I think someone with 500 jumps or so can asses the risks, it's almost criminal we aren't protecting our lesser jumpers from the hype.

And just in case there are still some individual thinkers coming into the sport, jumping a more forgiving canopy can still deliver a lifetime of fun and enjoyment - and sometimes a more full length lifetime of fun and enjoyment . . .

NickD

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Ignorance will not help anybody.

Many experienced jumpers used toggles on linetwists.
They are not happy being uncertain which toggle they were pulling and in what purpose.

We regularly train our EP to be certain which handle and why.

Nobody wants to be under linetwist where kicking isn't helping or is too slow/low, then grabbing random toggle waching if it's helping.

"80 seconds" video is demonstrating time-eating of trying everything.
Watch it carefully, at one point, only ONE toggle was efficiant.
If it was the only move - video would be called "3 seconds".

Being living weight under canopy, when twisted, you have 2 options to untwist:
1. to untwist weight-body, by kicking in needed direction (using legs)
2. to untwist your canopy, by steering it in needed direction (using ONE toggle)

So..
as soon as you train yourself to immediately identify which toggle to pull, as better.
If your choose never to use toggles at linetwist - it's not excuse for not knowing.

Simple and easy - follow the back lines of lower end of linetwist.
It leads to toggle needed for steering canopy in direction of untwisting.

Fact is
I've been under small linetwist which I couldn't kick out of.
Being prepared - I grabbed ONE toggle with both hands and saved a repack job.
Could've been a reserve linetwist. Reserves don't chop.

I beleive some jumpers are injured or even dead, trying to kick out of reserve linetwist..
or by pulling franticly both toggles.


Blue Skies

Sinke

What goes around, comes later.

[Andy_Copland 0]

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Reserves don't chop

They also dont dive and twist like an elliptical 7 cell diablo loaded at 1.6.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[linebckr83 3]

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Ignorance will not help anybody.

You are on the ass end of your own comment here. Ignoring what every experienced jumper here has told you is very ignorant, as most certainly will not help you. In fact it's asking for the opposite.

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I grabbed ONE toggle with both hands and saved a repack job.

It sure sounds like your goal in skydiving is to save reserve repacks. Hmm. I guess you're right, the damn things aren't designed very well, are a pretty risky alternative, and should only be used at the very last second

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If your choose never to use toggles at linetwist - it's not excuse for not knowing.

I can't agree with that. I have also read posts about "canopy transfer". It also can work in certain situations if done correctly, but it is an advanced maneuver and therefore I have no interest in learning it until I myself am advanced. And in that case I will go to one of Brian's courses and learn it firsthand, not from a 100 jump wonder.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[danielcroft 2]

Thanks for making me feel a lot less stupid.

On the subject of the post, I've been told that rear risers may be an option as well (if you can get to them).

Personally, I'm just going to chop. I've had spinning line twists and have chopped. A reserve pack isn't worth my life by a long, long way.

[stayhigh 2]

if your canopy is behaving mellow enough to determine which toggle to pull, that means you can kick em out by using time proven method..

other wise you have diving shit over your head and better chop...

scary factor is having only 100+ jumps over 5 years, which i think that is not current enough to jump anything over 1.2 wingloading...


So how is good is your 270???

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[Gato 0]

I shouldn't be commenting on this, but I can't help myself.

I should mention that I have bags of respect for Brian Germain, despite what I'm going to say. None of this is meant to be advice, just my dumb-ass noob rant. Grain of salt, an' that.

Simple economics are missing from this discussion. We must remember that Brian Germain, who I know is a rigger, has chopped a LOT, and probably had good reasons to try and negate his repack costs - if you're testing prototype sub-100 square foot mains, you will undoubtedly chop a lot, which would also mean your reserve is wearing out faster than normal, and on and on and on.....

Here are the only economics we, as noobs, need to be concerned with - and NOT during a jump:

Reserve repack: $50 - $65

Trip in an ambulance: $1500 - $2000, maybe more.

Emergency room and hospital costs: Who fucking knows?

Cost of burial: $5000 - $15000, maybe more if I was popular.

If I can't kick out, I'm chopping and pulling silver. Even in a calm state (Which is difficult to achieve on deployment, even if you're BG) there's no time for me to analyze the logic of whether I should be kicking out of the twist or pulling down a possibly locked-up toggle. If kicking out is the default maneuver, and it didn't work, how the hell would you have time (or awareness) to know which toggle to pull? By then, I will have burned off too much altitude to cut away - not acceptable.

It's a fascinating technique, but I'm pulling fucking red and silver.

T.I.N.S.

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If I can't kick out, I'm chopping and pulling silver. Even in a calm state (Which is difficult to achieve on deployment, even if you're BG) there's no time for me to analyze the logic of whether I should be kicking out of the twist or pulling down a possibly locked-up toggle. If kicking out is the default maneuver, and it didn't work, how the hell would you have time (or awareness) to know which toggle to pull? By then, I will have burned off too much altitude to cut away - not acceptable.
It's a fascinating technique, but I'm pulling fucking red and silver.

Great!

I wasn't wearing a knife until I was ready to use it.
Just remember there is something, and when ready.. Learn it!

If I knew for this in the beginning, I'd trained myself much earlier... yes I would.

What goes around, comes later.

[mjosparky 4]

Is it too late to get in on the pool?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kelpdiver 2]

I kind of think you're all being led on here.

[jimjumper 25]

I think I'll just jump a canopy that opens reliably without line twists, lands nicely, and if it ever does have line twists I'll use the reserve that I packed myself.

[Fast 0]

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I kind of think you're all being led on here.

Like I said, this guy is trolling. It really is some kind of assholish way to try and make a point. Certainly doesn't garner any respect in my book.

I don't think anyone has really come out and specifically said the idea won't work Just that it's not really a good one and can lead to some serious problems. I dunno exactly what the original poster is trying to prove but he sure as hell isn't doing a good job of it.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Ignorance will not help anybody.

'Selective' memory does not help either.

In the video that you are talking about BG says that normally he would have cut it away immediately and pulled his reserve.
He says this twice.
The title '80 seconds' comes from how long it took him to clear the line twists. He doesn't mention how much altitude he lost, but shortly after he got a good canopy he was at 5700 ft agl. He pulled at 13.5k.

With most line twists you won't be able to pull a toggle down or know which one you should pull. The toggle could also get 'stuck' in the down position. There might be times when pulling a toggle might get you out of line twists, but I wouldn't recommend it as a primary procedure, especially if you open lower.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[flipper 0]

Hey Format ... glad you made it through that jump

You should remember that line twists are a malfunction ...and are more than a risk for just you ...all the time you spend with twists you are at risk of flying into someone else ..up the line of flight or landing off ... again more risk

I have seen the vid where Brian 'eventually' gets it under control ... he has a heap of jumps ... years of expierence and IMO he just gets it together and no more on that jump ... this method of getting twists out is bullshit

You should be more concerned with sorting the situation and reducing risk to you and others around you as quickly as possible ...

If you cant control your canopy then get rid of it ...

Later

Flipper

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I dunno exactly what the original poster is trying to prove but he sure as hell isn't doing a good job of it.

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With most line twists you won't be able to pull a toggle down or know which one you should pull.

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this method of getting twists out is bullshit

Can any of you 3, determine in a blink whether it's a left or right twist?
And you don't want to learn it?

I wish you learn it... and never use it!

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Simple and easy - follow the back lines of lower end of linetwist.
It leads to toggle needed for steering canopy in direction of untwisting.

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I beleive some jumpers are injured or even dead, trying to kick out of reserve linetwist..
or by pulling franticly both toggles.

What goes around, comes later.

[linebckr83 3]

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I beleive some jumpers are injured or even dead, trying to kick out of reserve linetwist..
or by pulling franticly both toggles.

According to the fatality database, in the last 5 years there has been 2 deaths from reserve line twists...A tandem. And it is also believed that the reserve had a horseshoe malfunction that caused them. Under a reserve, which isn't spiraling to the ground like your diablo or 1.6 is going to do someday, you generally have enough time to kick out of the few line twists that may have occured from, for example, spinning during deployment.

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Can any of you 3, determine in a blink whether it's a left or right twist?

Can you? Maybe if the circumstances are perfect, but I'm sure that's rarely the case. What if, while dicking around with your "proven" method you collide with another canopy? What if you take just a few seconds too long to decide with toggle is right, and suddenly you're in G-loc and can't even reach up to grab your handles, let alone your toggles? Do you have a magic trick to fix these too?

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Can any of you 3, determine in a blink whether it's a left or right twist?

Sure I can.

I usually spend 70-120 seconds under canopy on WL:1.7-2.0+. I do not have 80 seconds to solve a line twist if I have one. There is not time for any experiment if you have a malfunction.

[flipper 0]

***Can any of you 3, determine in a blink whether it's a left or right twist?

Yes

If this method is so perfect why dont' they teach it on first jump courses

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quoting last 3 posts

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Can you? Maybe if the circumstances are perfect, but I'm sure that's rarely the case.

Sure I can. That is why I'm so patient with you, you should spend 3 minutes to learn it like I did.
It is usefull, very.

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I do not have 80 seconds to solve a line twist if I have one.

'cause I couldn't kick it out, just about to chop it...
with enough alti, I said to myself "cmmon pussy, you've got a theory? now is the time - f coarse I was scared and I was pretty slow in determining...
IT TOOK ME 1.5 sec to spot the proper toggle!
another 1 sec for untwist.

So, unsure, scared - 1.5 sec

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If this method is so perfect why dont' they teach it on first jump courses

I think it's useless teaching until jumper opens eyes.
I guess we all needed some time and jumps before we "opened our eyes"


Good Vibrations

Sinke

What goes around, comes later.

[linebckr83 3]

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I think it's useless teaching until jumper opens eyes.
I guess we all needed some time and jumps before we "opened our eyes"

Haha you're eyes are open?!?! I'm scared to death to find a jumper who still has their eyes closed then!! Just do me a favor and go to the first instructor you find, tell them your canopy choice and WL, and if you haven't been knocked to the ground already, tell them you want to learn canopy transfers because "your eyes are open and you get out of line twists by pulling toggles!"

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

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Yea, it looks like you really got attacked. It happens on the forums. It is hand to hand combat at times.

Nevertheless, I don't mind you quoting me. I stand by my word. It is true that you can burn your lines by unstowing the toggles on a spectra lined canopy, but I had HMA on the prototype in the video. All I can say is, it worked out just fine. If someone survives an incident, they selected one of the possible correct answers.

Blue Skies
Brian

We should sponsor Brian or so, to test it and get some explored answers.
Well, it's a shame I can't afford it (yet).

Search for possible bad side effects so far brought:
- spectra lines burned
- toggle might stay down (while untwisting)
- tension knot

To use solo toggle on linetwist?
This is NOT a regular manoevre.
Until properly researched and tested - we discuss.
Some, stupid like me, use it.
why?...
Kicking out of linetwist? -Never was happy about it, too slow.
Pulling risers? - They r full of heavy loaded lines - I'm not Hulk.
Pulling ONE toggle made sense to me.. and proved (to me) >>ONCE<<

I've seen many videos of jumpers moaning while pulling twisted risers, not even knowing whether it's the right riser to pull - at least THEY owe to know it.

Whether you are a kicker, a riser puller or a solo toggle puller - you should train for fast determination of direction needed for untwist.
Time needed for practice? Yup, very long, 200 seconds.

Immediate choppers are free to continue

I've never expected so many constructive replies, was it five?
(ONE was from Michael)

What the hack... I'll take it.

Sinke

What goes around, comes later.

[mdrejhon 8]

No comments about wingload, just some personal experience about my linetwists:

Under my still somewhat big square boat (170, loaded between 1.15 and 1.2), I've had three cases where I had spinning linetwists and was able to kick out of them within 3 seconds. Worst was a 720 degree (two twists) and I was still able to kick out of that. Smaller ellipticals twist many times more and more quickly, with more G forces. If I go that far, it's probable I'll discover I'll need to pull silver when I realize I can't kick out of them.

I guess if one has muscle memory to yank the correct toggle quickly before there are too many twists (too tight to pull toggle), I'm sure that would work fine if a reputable guy like Brian says it can potentially. Probably not going to be my approach, but could be workable, especially if the line was slippery enough (new lines would probably be easier than older dirty lines) -- if Brian Germain every makes it part of his cirriculum for spinning-linetwists recovery, I am definitely going to listen to him -- but it's still unorthodox, would rather wait until dozens of jumpers claim that the toggle-pull worked before I muscle-memory that technique.

One thing I was worried about for my canopy: Hard riser housings for cutaway lines especially since I'll downsize eventually to 150 and maybe 135 or smaller someday if I start a swooping habit someday (maybe not). I didn't have hard housings until now. Spinning linetwists on highly loaded ellipticals can twist SO tightly that it can make it impossible to pull cutaway because the linetwists holds the cutaway line in place even though only a few inches of it are into the linetwists (there has been deaths already due to this) -- and a cutaway line is slipperier than a brake line, especially a brake line going through a parachute that has 10 linetwists (360 x 10 = 3600 degrees) -- some people have experienced more linetwists than that -- that's going to be nearly impossible to pull compared to simpler 720 degree linetwists. I may not have experience with smaller canopies that go into crazy spinning linetwists like that, but just connecting the dots from what I've read, make me think that the toggle pull recovery method would only work if you had few enough line twists and reacted quickly to pull the correct toggle before too many twists tightened it to impossibility, may be easier if the brake line was super-slippery (i.e. made of slippery material, some of those no-stretch lines seem to be slipperier than dacron). Either way, my opinions carry no weight as I am not qualified -- just some musings anyway...

So many stories told... While I haven't had twists this bad, just be aware of the existence of evil line twists so tight that it's impossible to cutaway due to twists tightly holding the cutaway lines in the riser housings (in risers without hard housings)... Linetwists so tight that it threatens chokes your neck and you even have several linetwists below the S-Links, going all the way to the rear of your neck, almost making the two sets of three-rings touch each other behind your neck, forcing your neck down towards your chest! Stories of evil line twists like these exist.... Assuming similiar friction for brake line versus cutaway line, considering about 10 times brake line stuck in linetwists, in such evil line twists (much worse than what you've already experienced), would be at least 10 times harder than the 'impossible to pull' cutaway line that has already killed people... So be prepared if you have worse line twists than you already had... Plan B time! (And even Brian Germain said that too)

P.S. It's true! That's why new risers now come standard with hard housings for the few inches of cutaway line above the three rings! Just ask the parachute container manufacturers!