stitch 0 #26 February 12, 2009 QuoteOn the con side, for years Racers always had issues with their riser covers.Hardly an issue anymore, as magnetic riser covers are being offered as a no cost option on most sport rigs. The 2K3 series have always had tuck tabs since their introduction."No cookies for you"- GFD "I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65 Don't be a "Racer Hater" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #27 February 12, 2009 That's good to hear. Now Racers are PERFECT! NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #28 February 12, 2009 That sounds like a bad rigger. A hard pull can happen on any rig! I own 7 Racers and pretty much agree with everything Nick said. I get so nervous jumping rigs with exposed reserve pins.. They creep me out.. (Once had an AFF student knock a reserve pin loose on a 182 exit - that was on a Wings container - with an aggressive exit. And have seen numerous people have their reserve pins get knocked loose over the years with non-pop-top rigs... They're just so much more comfortable than other rigs - that's why I like them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #29 February 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteOn the con side, for years Racers always had issues with their riser covers.Hardly an issue anymore, as magnetic riser covers are being offered as a no cost option on most sport rigs. The 2K3 series have always had tuck tabs since their introduction. Not an issue at all any more. The magnetic riser covers definitely rock. Those who still bash Racers for what ever reason,probably haven't seen or jumped the latest ones Jump Shack has been putting out since the 2K3. None of the old gripes can be used anymore as an excuse. In fact, the only thing that could be said about it would be if someone didn't appreciate the aesthetics. Which is simply that persons opinion on cosmetics."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #30 February 13, 2009 I don't really want to get involved in this fight. But here's my two-cents worth: I have 5,000 jumps, all but the first 500 of them on a Racer. I wouldn't have stuck with them this long if I didn't think they were a great rig. QuoteThe main container pack tray almost disappears once the main pin comes out. Get one without the bucket corners (or have your Rigger remove the stitching in this area) and when your packer forgets to cock your pilot chute you'll still probably get a main as the pack tray doesn't trap the deployment bag inside it like other rigs. Um, I need to comment on this. Nick, I'm sure you know this, but I don't want any newbies to be misled by your comment into doing something potentially dangerous. The corner stitching is designed to contain the bag for a reason. That's to allow the pilot chute and bridle to reach full extension before yanking the bag out of the container. That's called staged deployment, and it keeps the bag and bridle from dumping out at the same time and getting entangled. It's the same reason we don't want the lines to come off the bag until the bag is off your back and under tension from the pilot chute. Getting things out of sequence can kill you. I understand that wing suit jumpers don't like those cupped corners, because they throw such a big burble and with a tracking trajectory that their pilot chutes aren't as effective as on a normal jump, so they don't want the extra resistance. But other than that specialized application, I don't think you want to go removing that corner stitching and defeating the design purpose there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #31 February 13, 2009 Quotebut Racer jumpers are a cult! all but about 20 of my jumps are on racers. I will jump nothing else...will never be the most popular but may be the most comfortable rig and you don't need any extra rings, cut in laterals, padded backpad, extra padded legstraps etc to get comfort. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BUBLHED 0 #32 February 13, 2009 Jump the hell out of it. Racers, wings, vectors, voodoo, whatever there all good rigs. If anyone that doesn't like racers and has a good used one for the cheap (big boy 230 main size) let me know I'll jump the sheet out of it. ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #33 February 13, 2009 I bought it used ('05) and got a pretty good deal to where just having it for packing was worth the price. ---------------- HUH?? How do you figure that? how much per un-jumped pack job does that work out to be? .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stitch 0 #34 February 13, 2009 I think the majority of jumpers slam Racers because that's what they hear from the majority of people they encounter at the DZ. All the while most, not all, have never even jumped a a Racer but feel it is their responsibility to inform everyone about it's shortcomings."No cookies for you"- GFD "I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65 Don't be a "Racer Hater" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
girthrockwel 0 #35 February 13, 2009 If you decide not to jump it you are welcome to send it to me for proper disposal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #36 February 13, 2009 What I've found from questioning other riggers who say racers are crap is that they're just so different that people don't want to touch them. Riggers who've got more than 1-2 pack jobs seem to love them so I think your challenge will be to find a good rigger who is familiar and likes them. If I ever have the opportunity I will pick up a racer as a backup rig. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #37 February 13, 2009 >>The corner stitching is designed to contain the bag for a reason. That's to allow the pilot chute and bridle to reach full extension before yanking the bag out of the container.Most of the Racers I had used a pull out PC system which makes your point mute. It's why all early Racers had open corners. That said, we also all jumped regular throw out PC systems for years in all kinds of rigs sans bucket corners without problems. Bucket corners are more of a packing crutch (the bag stays put) than anything else. And besides a PC that's not at line stretch and inflated isn't going to yank on anything . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #38 February 13, 2009 There is a person who has posted to this thread who actually had a reserve packing contest with another individual who claimed he could pack his rig faster than a racer. I won't steal any of that persons thunder, as he can tell the story better than I for sure. "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #39 February 13, 2009 Its OK Scott. We'll still talk and hang out with you even with that thing on your back... Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #40 February 13, 2009 Quote >>The corner stitching is designed to contain the bag for a reason. That's to allow the pilot chute and bridle to reach full extension before yanking the bag out of the container.Most of the Racers I had used a pull out PC system which makes your point mute. It's why all early Racers had open corners. That said, we also all jumped regular throw out PC systems for years in all kinds of rigs sans bucket corners without problems. Bucket corners are more of a packing crutch (the bag stays put) than anything else. And besides a PC that's not at line stretch and inflated isn't going to yank on anything . . . NickD Have a related thread about this in the WS forum that addresses your statement from the man himself: From John Sherman: From the earliest days of the round parachutes after the development of the deployment devices, sleeves, bags, etc.)we have known that proper sequencing is necessary to prevent malfunctions. This means that things must happen in order; Pilot chute out and dragging in clean air, deployment device with enclosed canopy to follow while allowing the lines to release from their stow one at a time until the final stows which allow the bag or sleeve to open releasing the canopy. When all of the above begins to drag the pilot chute that's "Snatch" [Snatch Force = The acceleration of the mass of the canopy lines and bag to speed.] Now inflation can begin safely. When squares first came out the fun began. I can't possibly cover all of the methods tested here but the single most important devise was a strap of webbing sewn to the center of the tray of the container which wrapped around the bag and held closed, retaining the bag, with a loop and grommet stow locked by the bridle. The container was a conventional back container with all open corners or in other words it lay flat when open. I did a hop and pop with a system like this (without the retainer)and had a very bad burble. I looked to my right and saw my pilot chute below the bag. The pilot chute had burbled and the bag had floated off my back. The bag was now dragging more than the pilot chute and the lines were deploying sucking the pilot chute into them. No fun. I was now a believer in the necessity to force the correct sequence into the design. I thought the strap was a less than desirable method 'cause it might snag something. About this time I was designing the Racer and as it was a piggy back I had the advantage of jamming the top of the bag against the bottom of the reserve, while holding the lines in the bottom corners of the main container. By packing the bag into the container with the bridle to the top against the reserve we could hold the bag in the container until the bag had positive lift on the bridle and rotate the bag out of the container. This dictated the sequence for years and worked very successfully. The test I always use to evaluate the safety of a main container is to pull the main pin while wearing the rig standing vertically. If the main bag falls out the rig is unsafe. Were I to be a wing suit jumper I would look for an alternate method other than removing the boxing completely . I believe the correct solution would be to maintain some of the boxing. John Sherman "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #41 February 13, 2009 Quote Its OK Scott. We'll still talk and hang out with you even with that thing on your back... Says the man who wears a gimp suit while riding his 10 speed"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #42 February 13, 2009 QuoteWhat I've found from questioning other riggers who say racers are crap is that they're just so different that people don't want to touch them. Riggers who've got more than 1-2 pack jobs seem to love them so I think your challenge will be to find a good rigger who is familiar and likes them. If I ever have the opportunity I will pick up a racer as a backup rig. -Michael I agree. It seems to me that the only real issue with Racers is that many rigger simply hate packing them and even charge more for packing them when they do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #43 February 13, 2009 Out of curiosity - can anyone remember the year that Racer stopped doing velcro riser covers ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #44 February 13, 2009 Quote Quote >>The corner stitching is designed to contain the bag for a reason. That's to allow the pilot chute and bridle to reach full extension before yanking the bag out of the container.Most of the Racers I had used a pull out PC system which makes your point mute. It's why all early Racers had open corners. That said, we also all jumped regular throw out PC systems for years in all kinds of rigs sans bucket corners without problems. Bucket corners are more of a packing crutch (the bag stays put) than anything else. And besides a PC that's not at line stretch and inflated isn't going to yank on anything . . . NickD Have a related thread about this in the WS forum that addresses your statement from the man himself: From John Sherman: From the earliest days of the round parachutes after the development of the deployment devices, sleeves, bags, etc.)we have known that proper sequencing is necessary to prevent malfunctions. This means that things must happen in order; Pilot chute out and dragging in clean air, deployment device with enclosed canopy to follow while allowing the lines to release from their stow one at a time until the final stows which allow the bag or sleeve to open releasing the canopy. When all of the above begins to drag the pilot chute that's "Snatch" [Snatch Force = The acceleration of the mass of the canopy lines and bag to speed.] Now inflation can begin safely. When squares first came out the fun began. I can't possibly cover all of the methods tested here but the single most important devise was a strap of webbing sewn to the center of the tray of the container which wrapped around the bag and held closed, retaining the bag, with a loop and grommet stow locked by the bridle. The container was a conventional back container with all open corners or in other words it lay flat when open. I did a hop and pop with a system like this (without the retainer)and had a very bad burble. I looked to my right and saw my pilot chute below the bag. The pilot chute had burbled and the bag had floated off my back. The bag was now dragging more than the pilot chute and the lines were deploying sucking the pilot chute into them. No fun. I was now a believer in the necessity to force the correct sequence into the design. I thought the strap was a less than desirable method 'cause it might snag something. About this time I was designing the Racer and as it was a piggy back I had the advantage of jamming the top of the bag against the bottom of the reserve, while holding the lines in the bottom corners of the main container. By packing the bag into the container with the bridle to the top against the reserve we could hold the bag in the container until the bag had positive lift on the bridle and rotate the bag out of the container. This dictated the sequence for years and worked very successfully. The test I always use to evaluate the safety of a main container is to pull the main pin while wearing the rig standing vertically. If the main bag falls out the rig is unsafe. Were I to be a wing suit jumper I would look for an alternate method other than removing the boxing completely . I believe the correct solution would be to maintain some of the boxing. John Sherman A-That story is utterly unrelated to dynamic/cut/open corners on rigs of today as they are all still more or less 3-sided. Other than John's "story" there is no data to support this absurd notion that dynamic corners are dangerous. Every rig manufacturer interviewed at PIA got a good belly laugh out of the idea. One actually snorted when he giggled. B-The guy that relates that story is the same person who claims to have invented the closing pin.It was a pleasure to interview Nancy this year. She's a good public face for JumpShack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #45 February 14, 2009 Quote Let me get this straight??!! You bought a rig with no intentions of ever jumping it????!!! Yeah, that caught my attention too... as in the OP bought a rig, just so they'd have something to "practice pack" with... That's even weirder that jumping a Racer! Anyway... to the OP... my 2 cents... althought I don't jump a Racer... I think they're just fine for jumping. I'd suggest you do some research on their RSL system and consider not jumping a Racer with the RSL hooked up, but that's just me. Learn, and make your own decission. As for repacking the reserves in Racers... I know several riggers that won't touch em. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #46 February 14, 2009 A- If you still can't see the point thats being made then I got nothing more for you short of showing you in person because you have missed the point entirely. B- Well seeing how his company pretty much makes and supplies most of the closing pins used for both sport and military use, I wouldn't be surprised if he did but I have never heard him claim that. That said, I think many would be surprised to find out he holds the patents for a good deal of skydiving related items. "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #47 February 14, 2009 QuoteOut of curiosity - can anyone remember the year that Racer stopped doing velcro riser covers ? as far as I know you can order with velcro, tuck tabs or magnetic riser covers - ie you can get whatever you want. The tuck tabs came in about 2002 (ie. 2k3). I have an 98 NOS racer with velcro riser covers - I have had no issues but replace it often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #48 February 14, 2009 Quote Quote Out of curiosity - can anyone remember the year that Racer stopped doing velcro riser covers ? as far as I know you can order with velcro, tuck tabs or magnetic riser covers - ie you can get whatever you want. The tuck tabs came in about 2002 (ie. 2k3). I have an 98 NOS racer with velcro riser covers - I have had no issues but replace it often. You are correct on both counts."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #49 February 14, 2009 Scott, I get the POINT of what you purport. I even believe that you believe it. But like *every* wingsuiter in the wingsuit thread, I happen to think it's a silly and specious claim based on one alleged, non-documented experience that could just as likely been a simple dislodged closing pin. I would like to have you show me in the air, in person. I don't believe it can be made to happen without modifying a rig or deployment system. I'm certain every manufacturer outside of JumpShack would appreciate such a demonstration, because I wasted at least three hours of everyone's time at PIA this week discussing this with every manufacturer there. Sunpath, UPT, Mirage, Rigging Innovations, Strong....they all felt this is a non-issue. I'm sure I don't know what I don't know, yet I place a lot of faith in the manufacturers with whom I spoke, their decades of experience, and the thousands of jumps that have occurred with dynamic corners . John Sherman did not invent the modern closing pin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #50 February 14, 2009 Quotebecause I wasted at least three hours of everyone's time at PIA this week discussing this I'll take your word on that as I am not even sure at this point you and I are talking about the same thing anymore."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
