JerryBaumchen 1,445 #1 November 18, 2008 This is a demo video that I have made that shows some of the testing that I have performed with the RAX System. This not all of the testing that I have completed. I developed this system for mfrs to use should they so choose to do so. I am willing to answer 'some' questions but I reserve the right to not answer 'some' questions. www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqxjHOSKTT0 JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
g2gjump 0 #2 November 18, 2008 Jerry, I was out at kapowsin one of the days when you did some of your test jumps. I remembered that the RAX failed and the test jumper went to the belly reserve. Could you give some insight on why/how it failed that particular time? (edit for spelling) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #3 November 18, 2008 QuoteThis is a demo video that I have made that shows some of the testing that I have performed with the RAX System. This not all of the testing that I have completed. I developed this system for mfrs to use should they so choose to do so. I am willing to answer 'some' questions but I reserve the right to not answer 'some' questions. www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqxjHOSKTT0 JerryBaumchen Interesting video. Qs: What happens if only the RSL riser releases or breaks on deployment? Can the system be installed improperly? (You may remember that this was a problem with the Skyhook early on.) What happens if the main opens and then the reserve opens (by an AAD fire) and the bag of the reserve starts to fall downwards (as opposed to opening)? (aka will the system cutaway the RSL riser in this situation?) What happens in two out situations? stack, side by side or downplane? Two of the issues in these cases are 1. will the system cut away the RSL riser without jumper input and 2. if the jumper decides to cutaway the main, what happens to the system (are there lanyards sent flying to half hitch the reserve)? What happens in a main canopy entanglement or horseshoe? (This scenario was never tested on the skyhook because it is too dangerous.) .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #4 November 18, 2008 I had the privilege of trying to figure out a way to make the system fail. Spent a few weekends looking at it with other riggers. As people can probably tell from my love of nitpicking and finding the small insignificant gotchas I was able to give it a long and critical lookover. The RAX system really is a well designed and well thought out system. The system is a little more complex than a skyhook but if a rigger can't figure out how to set it up they probably shouldn't be rigging. If I had a compatible rig I'd get one. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blink 1 #5 November 18, 2008 Forgive my ignorance, but who is the manufacturer of the RAX? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #6 November 18, 2008 The author of the first post in this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ion01 2 #7 November 18, 2008 What rigs can this be used on? The Skyhook for example can only be fitted on Vector 3, Sigma, Micro Sigma and Javelins. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,445 #8 November 18, 2008 Hi g2g, Oh, goody; the very first response is from someone who was present during my goofy mistake. Re: Quote the RAX failed The RAX System did not fail. It was a 'failure' of the main riser/RSL connection. We were just finishing up re-assemblying the system from a previous test jump and we were getting 'hurried' by the DZ management to make the load. The test jumper ( an old friend of over 35 yrs now ) reacted back to his early training days on gutter-gear & launched the belly-mounted reserve. Had he thought of it he could have easily just pulled the 'reserve' ripcord and landed under the back-mounted ram-air canopy. Lesson #1) Do not hurry when you are involved in test jumping ( don't hurry no matter what, really ). Lesson #2) When you are also developing a 'new' main riser/RSL connection do not try to assemble it while looking at it upside down. I hope that this clears this up for you. JerryBaumchen PS) This very same situation occured during Aerodyne's testing of the SkyHook; a main riser/RSL disconnect problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,445 #9 November 18, 2008 Hi Jan, QuoteWhat happens if only the RSL riser releases or breaks on deployment? You, the jumper, are in a bad situation. Given a perfect world Parachute Patents, Inc. would license the Collins Lanyard as a seperate license; they have chosen to license it only with the SkyHook. In reality, your situation would not be good but would the situation result in the reserve opening along side of the 1/2 of the main canopy that would still be connected: I do not know. I do know that if you are currently jumping a 'normal' RSL ( no SkyHook or RAX System or any of the others that are being developed ) then there is still the possibility of the reserve entangling with the 1/2 of the main canopy that is still disconnected. This does not seem to be of concern to anyone. QuoteCan the system be installed properly? *** I believe you mean improperly. Yes, it can. But then any sub-system can be installed improperly. I believe that it is very important that any mfr who uses the RAX System have very clear warnings in their manual regarding the proper way to assemble & pack the system. (You may remember that this was a problem with the Skyhook early on.) Quote I will make no comments about someone else's product. What happens if the main opens and then the reserve opens (by an AAD fire) and the bag of the reserve starts to fall downwards (as opposed to opening)? (aka will the system cutaway the RSL riser in this situation?) Quote The system will release the reserve pilot chute with about 2 oz of pull. About two yrs ago here in Oregon there was a situation of a low pull w/AAD fire on a Strong Dual Hawk rig. The reserve pilot chute launched, followed by the reserve canopy resulting in a 2-out situation. I believe very strongly that this is what will occur with the RAX System. What happens in two out situations? stack, side by side or downplane? Quote Take your pick; it will be one of the three. 1. will the system cut away the RSL riser without jumper input Quote No, to cutaway the jumper would have to pull the 3-ring release handle. 2. if the jumper decides to cutaway the main, what happens to the system (are there lanyards sent flying to half hitch the reserve)?Quote To answer this I will assume that you are referring to a 2-out situation. The answer is that there are no lanyards flying around; no more than a normal RSL except that there is one additional, quite small lanyard going from the main RSL to the RAX device. On the test rig this is about 10" long and made of either Spectre line or gutted Type 2A line. What happens in a main canopy entanglement or horseshoe? (This scenario was never tested on the skyhook because it is too dangerous.) *** Yes, it can be a very dangerous scenario. Kelly & I have come up with a couple of ways to test this; one using two AFF-type jumpers along with the test jumper & two using my drop test dummy with two AFF-type jumpers along for the testing. I will not be doing any additional testing on the system because of the weather situation here in the Pacific NW. At least not in the forseeable future. Also, my position is that each mfr who wishes to install this system on their gear will do the testing that they are comfortable with. Once any mfr installs the system on their rigs I consider it to be their system; not mine. I am not licensing this system & I am not charging any $$$ for it. I feel that if I were to license it then I could possibly put myself in financial jeopardy; I prefer to not do that. Also, I would probably have to setup some type of seperate company to license it and at this point in life I just choose to not do that ( I'm a pretty old guy & not getting any younger ). I hope that this answers your questions. If not, contact me and I will give it another go. JerryBaumchen PS) My personal email is in my profile. Contact me and I will send you a mockup to look over. I only ask that you return it to me within about two weeks. NOTE: I will NOT send mockups to every Tom, Dick and/or Jane who wants one. I will choose who I send them to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,445 #10 November 18, 2008 Hi Blink, QuoteForgive my ignorance, but who is the manufacturer of the RAX? Kelly Farrington came up with the original concept. I then took it & 'ran with it' so to speak. I have done the development work to get it to where it is today. The ultimate manufacturer(s) will be any rig maker who wants to install it on their rigs. Does this answer your question? JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,445 #11 November 18, 2008 Hi hackish, So you were the 'Michael' giving me all of the crapola. I did not put your actual name with your 'handle' here on this site. Had I done so my responses to you would have been different. Quote As people can probably tell from my love of nitpicking and finding the small insignificant gotchas I was able to give it a long and critical lookover. Folks, tell me about it. Quote The RAX system really is a well designed and well thought out system. Obviously, I agree. Quote The system is a little more complex than a skyhook Michael, I ( obviously ) disagree. Let's accept that I am biased, OK? However, when I try to look at both systems objectively I do consider the RAX System to be substantially simpler. I said that I was biased. Quote If I had a compatible rig I'd get one. You may get the chance sooner than you think. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,445 #12 November 18, 2008 Hi Ion, QuoteWhat rigs can this be used on? None as of this writing. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #13 November 18, 2008 Aside from possibly being available on more types of rigs, does it have advantages over the skyhook? I'm impressed that you're giving it away. Nice job! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #14 November 18, 2008 Hi Jerry, I thought I would be one of the first to see the RAX testing DVD video you sent me. It should be delivered in my mail box very soon. But it's OK. Communications first and I am glad you expose your RAX system to the whole world. For the readers: I have had the chance that Jerry was confident to me since he sent me a demo kit of his RAX system more than a month ago. I have showed it to several rigger friends and we all discussed and appreciated this nice invention made of: ordinary pin, zero size grommet, 1 inch tape ... just ordinary components. But don't get me wrong, the RAX system is clever but not so easy to understand until you have seen it closely at work and that is why I have aprreciated a lot the RAX demo kit. Thanks Jerry. I see the RAX as another option to the Skyhook. Since nothing is foolproof, those systems (and AAD as well) are intended to make skydiving safer but they will not (and never will) be the solution for all possible problems. The perfect system would involve (just like the Space Shuttle) several computers which check each other and go ahead only when all of them agree. Until somebody will forget to switch the system on.... Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #15 November 18, 2008 QuoteHi Jan, QuoteWhat happens if only the RSL riser releases or breaks on deployment? You, the jumper, are in a bad situation. Given a perfect world Parachute Patents, Inc. would license the Collins Lanyard as a seperate license; they have chosen to license it only with the SkyHook. Wow. I did not know that. Learn something new everyday. I assume you've asked them to license it separately. Then again, why would they want to do that for someone with a system that competes with the skyhook. Quote....This does not seem to be of concern to anyone. Well it should be a concern. QuoteQuoteCan the system be installed properly? I believe you mean improperly. Hey I wrote it properly as improperly.... QuoteThe system will release the reserve pilot chute with about 2 oz of pull. Ok Let me re-ask this one. A jumper pulls his main and it opens. But it was low so the AAD fires at about the time full opening on the main occurs. The reserve PC shoots off and falls downward because on too little airspeed. The reserve bag then gets pulled from the pack tray. Under this scenario, will your system cutaway the RSL riser? But your later answer of "No, to cutaway the jumper would have to pull the 3-ring release handle." kind of says it won't cut it away. QuoteYes, it can be a very dangerous scenario. Kelly & I have come up with a couple of ways to test this; one using two AFF-type jumpers along with the test jumper & two using my drop test dummy with two AFF-type jumpers along for the testing. I will not be doing any additional testing on the system because of the weather situation here in the Pacific NW. At least not in the forseeable future. Personally, I would use the dummy and not a real person. If I were the safety officer on this project I would not approve a real person deliberately inducing an entanglement. Quote I feel that if I were to license it then I could possibly put myself in financial jeopardy; I prefer to not do that. You might check with a lawyer on that. Lawsuits have a way of going after everyone involved, no matter how remote their role was. Quote PS) My personal email is in my profile. Contact me and I will send you a mockup to look over. I only ask that you return it to me within about two weeks. NOTE: I will NOT send mockups to every Tom, Dick and/or Jane who wants one. I will choose who I send them to. Wow, I feel so special ;) I'll return it to you within a couple of weeks. (You mean Earth weeks - dontja?) Addy is PO Box 2581 Hemet CA 92546. THanks.. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #16 November 18, 2008 Hi Jerry, I thought I would be one of the first to see the RAX testing DVD video you sent me. It should be delivered in my mail box very soon. But it's OK. Communications first and I am glad you expose your RAX system to the whole world. For the readers: I have had the chance that Jerry was confident to me since he sent me a demo kit of his RAX system more than a month ago. I have showed it to several rigger friends and we all discussed and appreciated this nice invention made of: ordinary pin, zero size grommet, 1 inch tape ... just ordinary components. But don't get me wrong, the RAX system is clever but not so easy to understand until you have seen it closely at work and that is why I have aprreciated a lot the RAX demo kit. Thanks Jerry. I see the RAX as another option to the Skyhook. Since nothing is foolproof, those systems (and AAD as well) are intended to make skydiving safer but they will not (and never will) be the solution for all possible problems. The perfect system would involve (just like the Space Shuttle) several computers which check each other and go ahead only when all of them agree. Until somebody will forget to switch the system on.... Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halfpastniner 0 #17 November 18, 2008 Quote Ok Let me re-ask this one. A jumper pulls his main and it opens. But it was low so the AAD fires at about the time full opening on the main occurs. The reserve PC shoots off and falls downward because on too little airspeed. The reserve bag then gets pulled from the pack tray. Under this scenario, will your system cutaway the RSL riser? But your later answer of "No, to cutaway the jumper would have to pull the 3-ring release handle." kind of says it won't cut it away. I thought this possiblity was made possible by the collins lanyard, which this system does not have. No?BASE 1384 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,445 #18 November 18, 2008 Hi Andre, Quote I thought I would be one of the first to see the RAX testing DVD video you sent me. Please do not blame me for the Canadian mail system. Personally & professionally, I think your other comments on dead-on. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,445 #19 November 18, 2008 Hi Jan, Quote ....This does not seem to be of concern to anyone. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well it should be a concern. Unless I am mistaken, every student rig has this situation. Quote Ok Let me re-ask this one. A jumper pulls his main and it opens. But it was low so the AAD fires at about the time full opening on the main occurs. The reserve PC shoots off and falls downward because on too little airspeed. The reserve bag then gets pulled from the pack tray. Under this scenario, will your system cutaway the RSL riser? But your later answer of "No, to cutaway the jumper would have to pull the 3-ring release handle." kind of says it won't cut it away. I do not know of any system that will cutaway the RSL riser in that situation. Now, just because I do not know of one does not mean that one does not exist. Quote You might check with a lawyer on that. I did; my son is a lawyer ( don't ask me about what it really costs me for his advice; ever price law school? ). As he says, nothing is absolute. I just want to put some distance between the plaintiffs and myself. Quote (You mean Earth weeks - dontja?) Maybe one day I'll learn never to volunteer anything. I volunteered once at 19 and ended up in uniform for four years. When Andre ( above ) gets the mockup that I sent him back to me, it will be on its way to you. It really all depends on those folks in the Canadian mail system. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
g2gjump 0 #20 November 19, 2008 Yep thanks for the clarification. BTW I was the lucky retriever of your lost main Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
girthrockwel 0 #21 November 19, 2008 Due to my huge lack of experience I don't completely understand what the RAX does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #22 November 19, 2008 Quote So you were the 'Michael' giving me all of the crapola. I did not put your actual name with your 'handle' here on this site. Had I done so my responses to you would have been different. I hope that's a good thing. For the unaware I tried my damnnest to figure out a way to make it fail. That's just what I do and I'm usually pretty good at figuring out ways to make things fail. The only thing I could come up with didn't even pan out. It's a good design, simple yet complicated and it works. Quote ***The system is a little more complex than a skyhook Michael, I ( obviously ) disagree. Let's accept that I am biased, OK? However, when I try to look at both systems objectively I do consider the RAX System to be substantially simpler. I said that I was biased. Let me clarify, the machinery is more complex. Or at least I think it is. I know there is a lot of complexity around exactly how the skyhook release is arranged, sewn and all that. I don't think either system poses a significant chance of screwing up. Jerry, you're biased. Quote Quote If I had a compatible rig I'd get one. You may get the chance sooner than you think. I stand by my words. It would cause TSO problems on my vector 3 wouldn't it? I was going to get a skyhook but I'd be just as happy with either one. If I had a tertiary rig I'd even do an intentional. Uh-oh what did I just volunteer for? -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #23 November 19, 2008 The Rax system has (like the Skyhook) 2 modes. Here is a simplified explanation of those 2 modes Mode 1 : If you have a malfunction and you decide to cut away the main parachute : Right after the cut away the main parachute is used as a giant pilot chute which pulls a small line (the Reserve Static Line or RSL) which is attached to the right main riser (generally) by a shackle. This line has some velcro and goes along the yoke. The line divides in 2 secondary lines. One is terminated by a metal ring which pulls the reserve cable and therefore the reserve pin. The other secondary line goes under the reserve pin cover (now open) to pull the reserve bridle cord. Since the cut away main parachute is gone for a while, pulling directly the reserve bridle and get the reserve inflated is faster that way than relying on the reserve pilot chute. Faster means also shorter distance which can make the difference between life and death. According the video the RAX get the reserve inflated within 75 feet like the Skyhook instead of 150-200 feet when the reserve is inflated by the reserve pilot chute. Mode 2 : If you have a total malfunction, there is nothing to cut away therefore you pull your reserve handle. This time the reserve pilot chute is in charge of the reserve deployment (no choice here) but your reserve bridle is still attached to the RSL which is still connected to the right main riser still in place. The ingenuousness is to design the device in order to have the reserve bridle release from the RSL. This is what the RAX and the Skyhook are doing. As Jerry explained it, the RAX doesn't comprise a Collins system unlike the Skyhook. The Collins system makes sure to first pull out the left riser yellow cable and therefore makes sure the left riser is released (in case the right riser breaks or releases) avoiding that way to have a reserve deployed and still be connected to the main by the left riser. Right riser breaks or releases are rare but it has happened. I hope that description will help but to completely understand ask to be with a rigger packing a Skyhook equiped reserve and/or a RAX equiped reserve in the near future and ask questions.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #24 November 19, 2008 QuoteQuoteThe system will release the reserve pilot chute with about 2 oz of pull. Ok Let me re-ask this one. A jumper pulls his main and it opens. But it was low so the AAD fires at about the time full opening on the main occurs. The reserve PC shoots off and falls downward because on too little airspeed. The reserve bag then gets pulled from the pack tray. Under this scenario, will your system cutaway the RSL riser? But your later answer of "No, to cutaway the jumper would have to pull the 3-ring release handle." kind of says it won't cut it away. Let me take a stab at this one. The simple answer is that the reserve would deploy just like any other reserve in the situation. The bridle will release from the RAX with no additional drag on the bridle (at 1:00 in the video, you can see a dark spot on the bridle- that is the connection to the RAX). If either the bag OR the pilot chute pulls on the RAX while the RSL and RAX are stowed, the RAX will release. There is NO provision that will allow any part of the reserve deployment process to cutaway a main riser. The biggest functional difference between the RAX and any other MARD device that I'm aware of, is the RAX is a purely mechanical device, and not subject to abnormal airflows that can cause premature releases of the system. Right spin, left spin, forwards, backwards, the RAX doesn't care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #25 November 19, 2008 Quote Let me take a stab at this one. The simple answer is that the reserve would deploy just like any other reserve in the situation. The bridle will release from the RAX with no additional drag on the bridle (at 1:00 in the video, you can see a dark spot on the bridle- that is the connection to the RAX). If either the bag OR the pilot chute pulls on the RAX while the RSL and RAX are stowed, the RAX will release. There is NO provision that will allow any part of the reserve deployment process to cutaway a main riser. My understanding now is that the RAX does not ensure that the main has been completely cutaway when you have a partial malfunction. I have another question. In the video at about 4:20 - this is the first view of the bag lock mal. Just before the reserve PC and freebag disappear from view, the reserve PC looks like it catches air and looks like it pulls tension on the reserve bridle line. The reserve canopy is still in the bag at this point too. Did the RAX disconnect on that jump (at that point)? Oh yeah, one more question. What criteria did you use to determine the placement of the RAX on the bridle line? Not having a schematic or picture of the rigging makes it hard to see how the RAX actually works. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
