You're an S&TA at your dropzone; are you obligated to comment on safety at another dropzone?

[NWFlyer 2]

First, read page 17 of the Governance Manual about S&TAs qualifications and how they are appointed.

http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Man_GovMan_2008_07.pdf

Then, read the S&TA handbook:
http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Man_ST_handbook_2003.pdf

Reading those may answer your questions, or it may keep things nice and muddy.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

How horrible do you think he would have felt if this guy would have gone in or killed someone else and he could have said something that might have prevented the whole thing?

+1.
IMO this goes for ANY skydiver.
For some things you simply don't need to be an instructor - merely sensible.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[klingeme 1]

I think he has an obligation to speak up as a skydiver, but not as an S&TA, as he is not an S&TA at that DZ. If he spoke up as an S&TA, he could be contradicting things that the DZ's S&TA has said.

Kind of like a visiting AFF instructor, not working but fun jumping, telling students something that contradicts "their" instructors.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[tsalnukt 1]

The other people that are going to be doing VRW with the guy should know better than to go skydiving with someone with a rig like that and 30 jumps. Tunnel rats could be an exception for jump numbers but experienced jumpers should know better than to jump with people with unsafe gear. You don't need an S&TA to be able to see what is safe and unsafe.

[LouDiamond 1]

I think its pretty clear in the S&TA manual(page 4):



The principal responsibility of the S&TA is to promote safe
skydiving. Toward that goal, the S&TA serves specific advi-
sory and administrative functions:.....

.....SNIP.......
In cases where a visiting S&TA observes a safety violation
or other hazardous activity, the local S&TA should be
informed of the action. If the visiting S&TA feels that
appropriate actions have not been taken by the local S&TA,
the Regional Director should be notified.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

What possible "good" reason could be posed for an S&TA in this scenario "not to"? ... obligated, should or otherwise??

Quote

Mike Klingelhoefer said...
Kind of like a visiting AFF instructor, not working but fun jumping, telling students something that contradicts "their" instructors.

Well... yes and no... if in your visiting AFF instructor scenario you're talking about DZ "A" does somehting one way and DZ "B" (where the visiting AFFI is now at) does something a little different, but putting personalities aside, both methods are equally "okay", then I would agree with you, the visting AFFI shouldn't begin to "instruct" the local student differently, but defer to the local AFFIs... I've seen fist-fights break out when they don't.

If you're talking something clearly a safety issue, then I wouldn't agree with you... the visiting AFFI should speak up, but first to the local AFFIs and then to the local S&TA or DZO if the situation cannot be dealt with and corrected at the lowest level.

[livendive 8]

I would probably say something to the jumper first, then I'd mention my concern about his rig to the people he was jumping with. If he chose to ignore me, I'd discuss it with the local S&TA.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[flyangel2 2]

Humm......This thread reminded me of another thread a few years back.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2358317;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

It seems when the S&TA was doing his job in this situation, there were a number of posters that tried to hand him his ass.

Sure hope all the support in this thread means the tide is changing.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[tetra316 0]

I think that situation is rather different than what happened here so I would not be so sure the tide is changing. That post is talking about something illegal, not unsafe, whereas this post is talking about something unsafe but not illegal.

[aironscott 3]

I kind of think that anyone that has experience in this sport is obligated to speak up when there is a safety issue about another jumper. Heck I've even had students point out a problem that the whole rest of the load had missed.

Aaron

“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!”

[tbrown 26]

Well, considering that this is a sport where people can get killed, what do YOU think ? I vote for the S&TA to speak up or turn in his/her rating. The person creating an unsafe condition isn't simply a danger to themself either, though even that should be enough reason to intervene. they pose a potential threat to everyone and anyone who may be in the air, or even onboard the plane with them.

This is a sport where we cannot afford to allow ourselves to be burdened with protocol.

Let me put it another way, how would you answer at an investigation into a fatality involving one or more people for the very thing you had prior knowledge of ? Enough people get killed inspite of everything we try to do to prevent it, no need to bump the stats because we're shy about speaking up.

I did see a case of this once, where a visiting S&TA witnessed some idiot flying opposite to the pattern and cutting people off left & right. She was going to give the dude a good reaming until she found out he was the DZO.... Sometimes you just can't fight city hall.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[DSE 5]

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Well, considering that this is a sport where people can get killed, what do YOU think ? I vote for the S&TA to speak up or turn in his/her rating.

I'm on the same page as you...and that's what inspired this thread, because there are apparently a few that disagree.
Curiously enough, today I was quietly pulled aside by a visiting instructor who has been an S&TA, and is a well-known canopy pilot.
He told me that my landing habits, while common, are dangerous and in the correct conditions I'll probably end up broken. He then went on to explain some dynamics of canopy flight that I've never considered from the perspective he presented. He was of course, right.
He then went to the DZM and told him of the discussion we'd had. I was impressed.

[jumpwally 0]

Can you share what your bad habit is/was, so we can learn from it?,,hell we might be doing it to !! Thanks

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[DSE 5]

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Can you share what your bad habit is/was, so we can learn from it?,,hell we might be doing it to !! Thanks

I tend to carve too much/often on front risers (habit I learned to give myself some breathing room) and one day, I'll likely find myself in bad wind and stall the canopy at the wrong time.
I could take the argument that "I've done it this way 1000 times and nothing bad has happened, but once he showed me video and broke it down frame by frame, I can easily see my compiled errors that let me 'get by' with what I'm doing.
Very grateful to Les for opening my eyes a bit.

[yarak 0]

wow I had trouble following that. Carving on front riser? Or do You mean you carve on rear risers too long and fear you will stall it?
What would a bad wind be for this habit? And when is the right time to stall a canopy? At what altitude are you doing this? on landing? i'm confused because if you are on your fronts you are obviously doing this with some altitude. that would be called a hook turn though not carving on fronts. And it certainly in no way would be used to give "breathing room".
How exactly do you mean carving on risers gives you breathing room? In what sense?
Obviously this is something that has to be seen to understand properly so dont bother trying to explain it in text. Also I really dont care anymore.

Not to mention its off topic
sick burn

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.

[DSE 5]

You're right.. I explained it badly. You're invited to come out any time, however.

[yarak 0]

hAHA

we have so much fun! Can't wait till I get out to UTAH one day.

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.