Ethanol

[billvon 3,121]

So I was driving past this gas station last night, and I noticed they were selling E85 for $2.20 a gallon. (Unleaded here is averaging around $2.50 a gallon.) E85 is an ethanol/gas blend; it's 85% ethanol (alcohol) and 15% unleaded gas. Interesting that it's cheaper now. A lot of cars around here are FFV's (flexible fuel vehicles) and can run on gas, ethanol, or any blend of the two.

I got out the Prius manual and found out that it will handle up to a 10% ethanol mix. Ethanol is being used as an oxygenate to replace MTBE in many places; it's less toxic when it leaks. In some states (like Minnesota) all gas has 10% ethanol. Which means that car fuel systems are now being designed to handle ethanol in some concentrations.

Then I got on the web and looked around to see if anyone had done any testing on the Prius specifically. Sure enough, a university had tested a Prius with E85, and it had worked fine. After about 200 miles they got an error light, and when they tracked it down, they discovered that it was because the computer was adjusting the mixture richer than it's normally expecting. Emissions went down, power went up, and overall mileage went down a bit, all of which you'd expect from alcohol.

So I got intrigued. I got ten gallons of E85 from the station (they made me sign a waiver first!) and am going to start mixing it with gas to see what kind of ratio the car likes. I know I can go to at least 10%, and I'm pretty sure 25% will work. If I can get to 50% I'll stop there, which would be 6 gallons of E85 and 4 gallons of regular gas. (It has an 11.9 gallon tank but usually only takes 10 gallons.)

[jumper03 0]

hmmm.....

I got several gallons of pure ethanol here in the lab...


On a related note, my neighbor deep frys turkeys a LOT and I've convinced him to save me the oil. I'm going to try my hand at making biodiesel from it. Throw in some acetone, shake, process and viola - or so we'll see....

Scars remind us that the past is real

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Quote

hmmm.....

I got several gallons of pure ethanol here in the lab...


On a related note, my neighbor deep frys turkeys a LOT and I've convinced him to save me the oil. I'm going to try my hand at making biodiesel from it. Throw in some acetone, shake, process and viola - or so we'll see....

You might want a chemical engineer to help you out with that....

see me in 2 years
-A

[billvon 3,121]

>I'm going to try my hand at making biodiesel from it. Throw in some acetone . . .

I thought the appropriate chemical was sodium methoxide, with the products being glycerin and biodiesel. I know people have done oil/kerosene mixes, but I've never heard of oil/acetone.

Side note - in the movie Fight Club, I couldn't help but notice they were making glycerin-based soap from human fat, which meant they were probably making biodiesel as well at some stage in the process. Fueling your car from human fat . . . interesting idea.

[dunesurfer 0]

Ethanol has corrosive properties. We(NMC) offer the Titan pickup in FFV config (flexible fuel veh) which has several changes to the fuel system to accomodate the ethanol. You might void your warranty coverage of related parts if they were damaged by using E85

[jumper03 0]

Quote

>I'm going to try my hand at making biodiesel from it. Throw in some acetone . . .

I thought the appropriate chemical was sodium methoxide, with the products being glycerin and biodiesel. I know people have done oil/kerosene mixes, but I've never heard of oil/acetone.

I think you're right. I remember acetone being used in the process but now that I think about it, I seem to remember it was to 'clean' the Na-meth to reuse again. I'll have to go pull out my notebook to see. It should be an interesting experiment none the less-

interested skydiver neighbor - "what you making in the sink?"

me - "fuel for my car"....

Scars remind us that the past is real

[unformed 0]

Quote

>I'm going to try my hand at making biodiesel from it. Throw in some acetone . . .

I thought the appropriate chemical was sodium methoxide, with the products being glycerin and biodiesel. I know people have done oil/kerosene mixes, but I've never heard of oil/acetone.

Side note - in the movie Fight Club, I couldn't help but notice they were making glycerin-based soap from human fat, which meant they were probably making biodiesel as well at some stage in the process. Fueling your car from human fat . . . interesting idea.

Hey there's the solution to our obesity problem. Fat people can get thin by selling off their fat for oil.

This ad space for sale.

[billvon 3,121]

>We(NMC) offer the Titan pickup in FFV config (flexible fuel veh) which
>has several changes to the fuel system to accomodate the ethanol.

Yes; apparently the Prius has the appropriate modifications to handle up to 10% ethanol. So at least it won't be a foreign substance to the fuel system, although it will be there in greater concentration (50%) than designed for.

>You might void your warranty coverage of related parts if they were
>damaged by using E85.

Oh, I think I've already voided my warranty with all the other modifications I've made.

[Shotgun 1]

Quote

Fueling your car from human fat . . . interesting idea.

Well at least we have plenty of that...

So can you drink this E85 stuff??? At $2.20 a gallon, that's much cheaper than Jack Daniels...

[mailin 0]

Quote

hmmm.....

I got several gallons of pure ethanol here in the lab...


On a related note, my neighbor deep frys turkeys a LOT and I've convinced him to save me the oil. I'm going to try my hand at making biodiesel from it. Throw in some acetone, shake, process and viola - or so we'll see....

A friend of my husbands, who lives in Fresno, CA has modified an old body style VW bug to run on french fry grease. All the McDonalds in the area supposadly save it for him, which he picks up every week.

Mileage is crap supposadly, but its free fuel.


Jen

Arianna Frances

[jumper03 0]

Quote

[A friend of my husbands, who lives in Fresno, CA has modified an old body style VW bug to run on french fry grease. All the McDonalds in the area supposadly save it for him, which he picks up every week.

Mileage is crap supposadly, but its free fuel.


Jen

well, if this works, I'll send you the 'recipe' and he can up his mileage....

Scars remind us that the past is real

[billvon 3,121]

>So can you drink this E85 stuff???

Well, the 85% ethanol is just regular ethanol, so no problem. But I think the 15% gasoline would be annoying.

[Guest]

Quote

>I'm going to try my hand at making biodiesel from it. Throw in some acetone . . .

I thought the appropriate chemical was sodium methoxide, with the products being glycerin and biodiesel. I know people have done oil/kerosene mixes, but I've never heard of oil/acetone.

Side note - in the movie Fight Club, I couldn't help but notice they were making glycerin-based soap from human fat, which meant they were probably making biodiesel as well at some stage in the process. Fueling your car from human fat . . . interesting idea.

Soylent VERY Green...

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[justinb138 0]

Quote

>So can you drink this E85 stuff???

Well, the 85% ethanol is just regular ethanol, so no problem. But I think the 15% gasoline would be annoying.

Just adds flavor

[dunesurfer 0]

You may notice a decrease in economy using E85.
Also, below is from research I did on E85 for work.

Limits to E85 fuel:
Temps above 90deg F may induce hard start and rough idle.
Temps below 0F may produce hard starting and poor drivability.
5w30 engine oil is recommended when using E85.
E85 contains less energy than gasoline per gallon.
Fuel economy may decrease by 30% compared to gasoline operation.
switching back and forth between E85 and gasoline may cause drivability concerns.

edited because I am a tard.

[billvon 3,121]

>Fuel consumption may decrease by 30% compared to gasoline operation.

You meant increase, right? If so, that's what I've discovered as well. We'll see.

[dunesurfer 0]

No, decrease. Ethanol contains less energy than gasoline. The lower cost is supposed to offset this.

[BillyVance 35]

Believe it or not, there's a guy in St. Clair county in Alabama (my home county), just east of Birmingham, who has converted a 1984 diesel truck (picture of it looks like it might be a Dodge) to use burning wood as its primary fuel source, at about the same emission rate as if the wood decomposed on its own... He took the motor out and put a 1968 hot-rod engine in it with more horsepower. Then he build a wood-burning system mounted in the truck bed with hoses and pipes running to the engine, etc... and has 3 pedals - brake, gas and wood. He still needs to use gas to get the truck started. it's so complicated you have to be a mechanic just to operate the dang thing, but he's gotten 100 miles in a day with it.

It was an interesting read to say the least.

He has a cattle and hay farm with about 3 acres of hardwood trees and a sawmill. His log home is powered by a windmill producing electricity.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[dunesurfer 0]

Finally found it:
Btu/gallon, ethanol=76000
Btu/gallon,gasoline=114000

[jumper03 0]

Quote

Believe it or not, there's a guy in St. Clair county in Alabama (my home county), just east of Birmingham, who has converted a 1984 diesel truck (picture of it looks like it might be a Dodge) to use burning wood as its primary fuel source, at about the same emission rate as if the wood decomposed on its own.

I would love to see a picture of that truck.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[billvon 3,121]

>Btu/gallon, ethanol=76000
>Btu/gallon,gasoline=114000

OK, then I must be missing something. You said:

>Fuel consumption may decrease by 30% compared to gasoline operation.

So why would fuel consumption decrease if ethanol is used? Ethanol has less energy; wouldn't you need to INCREASE the amount of fuel you used to compensate?

[dunesurfer 0]

Geez, my brain is putty today! You are most correct. Fuel consumption would increase.
I need to proof read this stuff before I press the magic button

[Snowwhite 0]

Soylent VERY Green...

mh

.

[billvon 3,121]

So last night I tried an experiment with ethanol. I used a 36% ethanol/64% gasoline mix in my Prius, and drove a round trip of 120 miles. No problems overall. There was a perceptible increase in power and a 9% decrease in gas mileage.

Details:

The Prius is designed to use up to a 10% ethanol/90% gas mix. This is needed for operation in some states that use ethanol as an oxygenate instead of MTBE. From this I concluded that the Prius fuel system had been designed to accomodate some amount of ethanol without degradation, and the surfaces in the catalytic converters would not be degraded by combustion products involving small amounts of ethanol.

Then I took a look around the web, and found a study done by Minnesota State University where they ran a Prius on E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gas) and measured emissions results. They discovered a reduction in three pollutants (HC, NOx, and CO) an increase in power of 20% and a reduction in overall gas mileage. They also discovered that after approx 140 miles they would get a check engine light. They used a diagnostic tool to check the error code; apparently the error was due to the computer having to increase the richness of the mixture by 32% to deal with the added oxygenate in the fuel. The computer did not have a problem making this adjustment but did set an error code since it was outside its expected range. See link below for more information.

I thought that perhaps a less aggressive mix of ethanol and gasoline would bring some of the benefits of ethanol operation (i.e. decreased reliance on petroleum, increased power) without setting the error light. A 36% mix would only require a 14% mixture adjustment; this might be within the 'legal' range of the mixture adjustment.

To get the right mix I filled several 5 gallon cans with E85 from a local gas station. (They made me sign a waiver saying I wouldn't sue them if I damaged my vehicle, which I thought was funny.) E85 cost was $2.10 a gallon; local gas costs around $2.50 a gallon. I filled the Prius from one of the cans and topped it off with regular (87 octane) gas from a local gas station. Calculating the amounts got me a 36% ethanol mix.

I then drove a 120 mile round trip with one passenger. No error lights, and my mileage, as determined by the car's computer, dropped off by about 9% while giving me a noticeable increase in power. This leads to a fuel cost of 5.4 cents per mile with normal gas and 5.6 cents per mile with the E36 mixture I used.

So overall a bit of a pain to mix the fuel manually, but it seemed to work well. I may try a mixture up to 50% ethanol next.

Link to study:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:PXnbS07SNHgJ:www.creedproject.org/e85%2520hybrid%2520report.doc+ethanol+prius+test+E85&hl=en

[DrunkMonkey 0]

That's great. Now when is technology like that going to be available for the average worker without an engineering background?

Most of us do not have the money to drop on a new hybrid car, or a used one. Once my current car dies, perhaps I will be able to afford one. Hopefully the technology will have matured to higher levels by then.