billvon 3,090 #26 August 2, 2005 >5. Outlaw skydiving. Well, yeah, that's a given. But we could keep skydiving with a pretty good assurance that, most years, no one would die. It would take a lot of new rules and a lot of policing but we could do it. If we ever got there, people would hate it. It's one of those "be careful what you wish for, you might get it" things. Are we willing to give up swooping, freeflying, wingsuits, bigways etc if that's what it took to get to zero average fatalities a year? I doubt it. Which means that, like it or not, we ARE OK with a few fatalities a year if it means we can swoop, or freefly, or whatever. Which I think is one of the thing that bothers me about it. We don't really want zero fatalities; we want zero fatalities without inconveniencing us or reducing our fun. And that's not a realistic goal. Since we can't get there, we accept some fatalities because we prefer it to the alternative. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #27 August 2, 2005 Well, your Thailand example is very extreme, that's a ton of folks sometimes over landing areas they've never seen, etc. (I've only been on something less than half that size, the current 121 way sequential record) But how about at our own DZ's? Nobody died at Byron last year. Our culture is to quickly introduce outselves to new jumpers at the DZ and make them clear on how we do things. And people aren't shy about making others clear on what safety expectations are. So, all politics being local, how do we reduce the fatalaties at our home dropzones to zero? It will be far more challenging at the big DZ's like Perris, Eloy, Z-Hills, etc. So, when somebody shows up at my DZ and I introduce myself to them I ask what their numbers are, their discipline, and about their canopy. I take care of them myself, or if they are jumping a velo 79 (or whatever) and exclusively jump head-down, I point them to deBar or Evan or somebody else who can clue them in. I don't know how much input you had to having the Perris swoop landing area moved away from the main landing area, but I bet that has saved lives. What else can we do to reduce the number of fatalities at our own dropzones to zero? Bring it home. That old thing about "not in my backyard" is usually used when somebody wants something (like a sewage treatment plant) just "not in their back yard" Maybe we can treat this concept the same way. "Nobody dies in my back yard", although I usually think of the landing area as the front yard. Anyhow, nobody dies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #28 August 2, 2005 zero fatalities is an excellent goal, but a goal is just that: something to strive for, not necessarilly something that is achievable. our goal at Fedex (where i work) is 100% on time deliveries: never going to happen because there are too many variables (weather, maintenance of aircraft etc). do you realistically think that there will ever be a year without an automobile fatality? without a drowning? without a housefire fatality? its just not going to happen no matter how hard we strive for it or how many rules we have. okay, so no swooping, no bigways, everyone is on a canopy at a .50 wingloading...just last year a guy flew himself into the ground on a Manta 280 and killed himself... all in all its a good goal to have but please be realistic in your approach to it... As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #29 August 2, 2005 Deuce, I think the gist of your post is just like the bumper sticker - "Think Globally, Act Locally" Right? I intend to follow your example.Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #30 August 3, 2005 QuoteDeuce, I think the gist of your post is just like the bumper sticker - "Think Globally, Act Locally" Right? I intend to follow your example. Yeah, I think so. How can each of us reduce the number of deaths at our own dropzones? Most of the arguments against this, and I know there will be deaths, are because we can't "police" the sport enough, or doing so will take the fun out of it. It's going to be REAL hard at the big DZ's. How about zero "preventable" accidents. What I mean by "preventable" is if somebody's aorta detaches during a hard opening, that's not "preventable", if an in-date reserve fails after being properly deployed, that's not "preventable". I think what greybeard is talking about is canopy collisions and the multitude of "preventable" fatalaties we've had, like the woman who turned on her cypres a thousands something feet below the altiude of her dropzone. I've added that one to the mantra I teach my students now regarding gear checks "Is your cypres on, did you turn it on here, when did you turn it on?" On each of our own dropzones, let's reduce the preventable fatality rate to as close to zero as we can, by doing all we can. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #31 August 3, 2005 QuoteHow about zero "preventable" accidents. What I mean by "preventable" is if somebody's aorta detaches during a hard opening, that's not "preventable", if an in-date reserve fails after being properly deployed, that's not "preventable". I think what greybeard is talking about is canopy collisions and the multitude of "preventable" fatalaties we've had, like the woman who turned on her cypres a thousands something feet below the altiude of her dropzone. "Preventable" is a great standard to use. In college, I worked as a driver for campus transit, which would grant safety awards for drivers who went 350 hours without a preventable accident. Each accident would be reviewed to determine whether there was anything the driver could have done to prevent the accident. Note that preventable doesn't necessarily mean it was the driver's fault, just that the driver didn't do everything he or she could do to prevent it from happening. It caused people to change the way they thought about driving - changing it from a pure "my fault/not my fault" way of thinking into a more holistic "what can I do to keep accidents from happening, even if they're caused by the other driver." There's always going to be shit that happens that's not preventable, but I like the idea of working to create a culture where those are the only accidents we tolerate."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #32 August 3, 2005 >Well, your Thailand example is very extreme, that's a ton of folks > sometimes over landing areas they've never seen, etc. Exactly. And that's exactly the sort of thing we'd have to do away with. >So, when somebody shows up at my DZ and I introduce myself to >them I ask what their numbers are, their discipline, and about their > canopy. I take care of them myself, or if they are jumping a velo 79 > (or whatever) and exclusively jump head-down, I point them to > deBar or Evan or somebody else who can clue them in. Right. But what if Luigi showed up one day and wanted to jump his 58? (which is a large canopy to him.) Would someone there tell him he couldn't? How about Chris Martin, jumping a tiny canopy then intentionally cutting it away? The basic problem is that we accept that people in this sport have a right to do dangerous things. We try to help new jumpers, but beyond a certain point, we say "they are good enough, they accept the risk." And that's the attitude we would have to change. The attitude would have to become "I don't care how many jumps Dan BC has, he is not doing a 22-way with a Velocity 96!" Are you willing to say that? I'm not. And that's exactly what I don't want skydiving to turn into. "Yeah, it would be great if we could set a new sequential record, but someone might die, so you can't do it." The attitude that "anything dangerous is too dangerous" is exactly the attitude we accuse whuffos of having, and most skydivers dislike that sort of thinking. >What else can we do to reduce the number of fatalities at our own >dropzones to zero? Ban high performance canopies. Require AAD's on everyone. Require hard helmets. Require AFF skills for any bigway. Ban anyone who didn't start there. DZ's have done most of these things already - yet instead of supporting them, skydivers have howled. We're not willing to give up those freedoms to get a chance at lower fatalities, and I'm not sure we're wrong about that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #33 August 3, 2005 Bill, I wouldn't argue with you about just about anything in skydiving. If Luigi wanted to jump his sub whatever canopy we'd all line up to see it. He can do it. Would we let him do it after we knew he drank beer or smoked a joint? Gosh, I hope not. There are anomolies, I don't thing Greybeard is talking about those, Chris is an example, a fellow member of our fraternity of Skymonkeys. I'm not talking about anomolies either. Just dumb stuff. Crashing. We need people pushing the envelope, but not low time short bus riders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #34 August 3, 2005 I doubt that Darwin will take a year long break. He's bound to get some one Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nael 0 #35 August 3, 2005 Quote I propose a goal for 2006. "ZERO FATALITIES". Um, isnt that always the goal? I doubt anyone goes out there and says "I'm gonna do this really dangerous manouver in an attempt to kill myself today!". Generally, when people get in that plane their goal is to land safely and pack and get on another load. As other's have said, this is a great goal to have, but since we already have it, what is going to be any different, unless we place restrictions on our jumping (like Billvon has suggested and got told to shut the F up for!). Someone needs a reality check. www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greybeard 0 #36 August 3, 2005 cheese and rice bill. We're just talking here. Why can't you be more posistive. Nobody knows better than I that my best buds are dead. But I still don't like Rumsfield telling me that I have to go with I got. Bill Rumsfield? Wait, that can't be. I have to accecpt and deal with reality, but I don't have to promote the negative. Or tell anyone else that this is the best they can expect. I like Duece's 'start in your own back yard' approach. It's a positive mind set that just might enhance our sport. And yea, it's been talked and talked about to infinity, keep it up!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #37 August 3, 2005 QuoteI can't control everyone, so I can only promise that I will not personally die in 2006. I'm usually pretty good at keeping my promises. If I break the promise, well I guess that'll be punishment enough in itself. Blues, Dave I'll do you one better, Dave! I promise not to die in the remainder of 2005, either! ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #38 August 3, 2005 i would love to promise not to die, but alas, i cannot. i promise to do my best not to die, but i cannot (nor can anyone else to the best of my understanding) promise NOT to die or kill myself skydiving. it is a sport where you can do everything right and it still not be enough. yes, this sucks but thats reality. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #39 August 3, 2005 Quotei cannot (nor can anyone else to the best of my understanding) promise NOT to die or kill myself skydiving. I can. And most of the rest of the world can as well.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #40 August 3, 2005 sorry Jaye but i call BULLSHIT. you can promise but you cant guarantee it. sorry to burst your bubble but this sport kills. period. i have been in the sport less than 3 years, and havent seen a fatality YET (thank God), but there are simply too many variables. i have seen a main/reserve entanglement that most likely would have been fatal had it not been for the age of the jumper (14). and seen 3 people fly themselves into the ground. they dont count in this discussion i guess but there is no way you can say that you will not die skydiving this year. i hope and pray you (and i)i wont but the possibility is there As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #41 August 3, 2005 That's kind of like the "no drinking or drugs" pledge that I had to sign to play sports in highschool."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdweller 0 #42 August 3, 2005 i have seen a main/reserve entanglement that most likely would have been fatal had it not been for the age of the jumper (14). _______________________________ How is the age of the jumper relevant?------------------------------------------------------ "From the mightiest pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" C. Montgomery Burns Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmittar 0 #43 August 3, 2005 We live and therefore we die... If you haven't figured that out, then no amount of logic can help you. We try to prolong the first and avoid the later, but it is unavoidable. Also, the "fatalities are unnacceptable" statement is simply not true. Not only are they acceptable, but they are as much a part of life as birth. Love those you know and do your best to keep them safe, sooner or later we all follow suit. Recognize it for what it is. |>.<| Seriously, W.T.F. mate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #44 August 3, 2005 Quotesorry Jaye but i call BULLSHIT. you can promise but you cant guarantee it. sorry to burst your bubble but this sport kills. period. i have been in the sport less than 3 years, and havent seen a fatality YET (thank God), but there are simply too many variables. i have seen a main/reserve entanglement that most likely would have been fatal had it not been for the age of the jumper (14). and seen 3 people fly themselves into the ground. they dont count in this discussion i guess but there is no way you can say that you will not die skydiving this year. i hope and pray you (and i)i wont but the possibility is there Yes I can. I can guarantee it, and as I said, the majority of the free world can as well. I don't jump anymore. And neither does the majority of the free (or not-so-free) world. I don't need you to tell me about fatalities and accidents. I have seen enough. 14 year old...why would it have killed anyone else? Edited out last comment.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #45 August 3, 2005 "If we die, we want people to accept it. We're in a risky business, and we hope that if anything happens to us it will not delay the program. The conquest of space is worth the risk of life." -- Virgil I. "Gus" Grissom Not exactly apropos, but sums up how I feel, and how I think many jumpers feel. Sure, it's risky, but the rewards are worth the risk. The trouble lies in the zero-sum theory, id est, you can do everything right and still die. Here's something you can quote me on. I've adopted a remark made by Colonel David Hackworth: If I die, I want people to know that it was because I was a dumbass. I don't want people to feel anguish or a sense of loss at my passing. I would prefer that they take a lesson from my demise and apply it to their own skydiving regime so that the same thing doesn't happen to themselves. Even if it wasn't my fault. ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #46 August 3, 2005 I can't promise anything man... but since you asked nicely I'll try real hard not to die in 2006. In fact I'm glad you asked 'cos I probably wouldn't have thought of it otherwise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #47 August 3, 2005 QuoteI don't jump anymore Thats a pretty good way to ensure no one dies skydiving.... Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #48 August 3, 2005 QuoteI don't jump anymore. And neither does the majority of the free (or not-so-free) world. why did you quit jumping? For me anyway, there came a time when I realized that I am going to die, I am mortal, and I had to accept that. I am not going to go through life know that I didnt try my best. Therein lies a certain amount of risk. Who are we to dictate how much risk another person should or should not take? We can advise, but... well you see...Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 21 #49 August 3, 2005 Bill, Just in case you save that list...... 5. Make everyone practice PLF's from a high platform until they are experts at them, then make everyone do a PLF on every landing that is not expected to be a tippy-toe zero speed landing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GogglesnTeeth 6 #50 August 3, 2005 A good goal. I'll do my best to not die next year.... or this year for that matter.Goggles and Teeth "You fall like a greased safe!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
