ladyskydiver 0 #51 August 8, 2005 Will do. If all goes well, I'll be there around 2pm on Friday. Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gravitational 0 #52 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuotecurrent method of trying to control the landing patterns by using the PA as jumpers approach the landing area is pretty ineffective. Is this what they are doing? Really? Kinda, but not really... The PA is generally directed at those on the ground to look up at the cluster. The message is repeated over and over again in the hopes that you're not always up in the air and will hear one of the messages, unless you're ignoring all of them.------ Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #53 August 9, 2005 Quote current method of trying to control the landing patterns by using the PA as jumpers approach the landing area is pretty ineffective. Is this what they are doing? Really? I second that wow! If they are really doing that, they might as well just stand in the landing area and scream at people on approach. You'd have about as good a chance of someone hearing you.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #54 August 9, 2005 QuoteKinda, but not really... The PA is generally directed at those on the ground to look up at the cluster. The message is repeated over and over again in the hopes that you're not always up in the air and will hear one of the messages, unless you're ignoring all of them. The message is not repeated more than a few times daily at best and usually it's when manifest observes people landing in different directions. I know that because I spend all day right next to the landing area and I hear every announcement made. One of the reasons it's so ineffective is because the wind directions changes so often that an hour after they request landing with manifest on your right, the landing pattern can change 90 to 180 degrees. Plus if it's so effective, how come on almost every load you have people landing in different directions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #55 August 9, 2005 QuoteThe problem with a meeting is that wind conditions sometimes change as much as several times per hour. As they do at many dz's. A briefing could cover predominant wind directions, advise on landing areas that favor those directions and go over suggested patterns for each area. Then all a jumper has to do is watch how those below them are landing (or check other wind indicators if there's no one below), decide which landing area to use and fly a pattern accordingly. If those who don't know better are given some direction maybe they won't scare themselves and others in the air... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #56 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe problem with a meeting is that wind conditions sometimes change as much as several times per hour. As they do at many dz's. A briefing could cover predominant wind directions, advise on landing areas that favor those directions and go over suggested patterns for each area. Then all a jumper has to do is watch how those below them are landing (or check other wind indicators if there's no one below), decide which landing area to use and fly a pattern accordingly. If those who don't know better are given some direction maybe they won't scare themselves and others in the air... I agree, however we are talking about experienced skydivers. Having an S&TA speak to the violators would occur on most DZs but for some reason it's not done at the WFFC nor is there any risk of being grounded for repeated landing direction violations as there would likely be at most DZs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #57 August 9, 2005 Quote...Plus if it's so effective, how come on almost every load you have people landing in different directions. Idiots???My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #58 August 9, 2005 >Is this what they are doing? Really? The announcements we made were for the people on the ground, not the people in the air. The problem times were when the wind was near-zero, puffing occasionally out of the west. The default landing pattern is to the east in the main landing area; when it was coming lightly out of the west, some would chase the windsocks and some would land the default direction, leading to traffic problems. I talked to one jumper who landed to the west when the other 20 people from the same load landed to the east. All I got was attitude, of course. "Why should I have to land downwind when everyone else screws up?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #59 August 9, 2005 On light and variable day the DZSO on our DZ puts out a BIG RED Arrow that points in the landing direction, go against it and you get bollocked, do't learn and you get grounded.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #60 August 9, 2005 Hold up why doesn't low man set the traffic pattern? I don't get this. Windsock changing, blah blah blah, why doesn't everyone on the load follow the first jumper in?? That big arrow thing sounds good too. I just don't see how this is such a major, continuos issue, when it could be so easy to fix? Definitely not going to WFFC anytime soon. Landing area fuck-ups is way un-fun to me. ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #61 August 9, 2005 Quote>Is this what they are doing? Really? The announcements we made were for the people on the ground, not the people in the air. The problem times were when the wind was near-zero, puffing occasionally out of the west. The default landing pattern is to the east in the main landing area; when it was coming lightly out of the west, some would chase the windsocks and some would land the default direction, leading to traffic problems. I talked to one jumper who landed to the west when the other 20 people from the same load landed to the east. All I got was attitude, of course. "Why should I have to land downwind when everyone else screws up?" Are you surprised there hasn't been a canopy collision yet? I think it's due to the large landing area but I think it's just a matter of time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #62 August 9, 2005 "Why should I have to land downwind when everyone else screws up?" *** I know it's not P/C in the context of the point you guys are trying to make....but I can understand that statement. We're not Lemmings after all. If I'm on a load that for whatever reason is landing downwind...if I can safely clear my air, I'm not following them in. At this stage of the game I might not HAVE a whole lotta downwinders LEFT in me. Of course if I think it will create a problem for someone else...I'm NOT going to risk a collision. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #63 August 9, 2005 Quotei like this idea too, having something every year lets everyone go all the time and then it'sjustnot a must go to event, one BIG thing every 2 or three years wuld keep the interest, If it were held every other year attendance would drop over time. People would find other things to do on the off years and might not ever go back."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #64 August 9, 2005 QuoteAre you surprised there hasn't been a canopy collision yet? Not so certain that that's true. But I don't know. I did one jump at WFFC last year, landed, kissed the ground, and said "never again". So this year I went, saw my LD SO , and happily spent my time on the ground watching canopies and sunsets. But due to the waning attendance, I probably won't go next year. I only went for the party, and that seems to be dying as well. There are always other boogies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #65 August 9, 2005 QuoteDefinitely not going to WFFC anytime soon. Landing area fuck-ups is way un-fun to me. Landing area fuck-ups can happen anyplace, anytime. Three or four different landing areas make it a bit harder to police and/or "fix" the problem at WFFC than it is at our home dz's. If you aren't comfortable keeping track of a lot of other canopies in the air with you, then mid-day at WFFC isn't the place or time for you to be jumping. You can still get a lot of jumping in without dealing with a lot of traffic by getting on loads in the morning and finding other things to do when the rest of the planes start flying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites namgrunt 0 #66 August 9, 2005 I called and offered to bring my 30 foot long 3 foot wide neon orange arrow with a 6 foot diameter yellow smileyface but alass it was NOT needed but they did offer to allow me to set up shop for $850 plus registration fees BUT could not advertise . humm wonder why I did not go??? the arrow points to landing direction and is easy visible from 14000 feet up great for new,low jump jumpers wonder why more venders stayed home??? its ALL about the $$$$$ ..59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI) www.dzmemories.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #67 August 9, 2005 >Hold up why doesn't low man set the traffic pattern? I don't get this. Cause that's just not the way it's done at the convention. I don't know why. Their scheme is 'everyone land into the wind.' I made a few announcements to remind people that if they see people landing downwind, and they want to land into the wind, there are a lot of other landing areas to choose from. Unfortunately, everyone wants to land in the 'main' area so they don't have to walk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #68 August 9, 2005 >Are you surprised there hasn't been a canopy collision yet? There have been a few. I recall Dead Mike's collision about 10 years back, and I believe there was another one a few years ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #69 August 9, 2005 Quote Definitely not going to WFFC anytime soon. Landing area fuck-ups is way un-fun to me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Landing area fuck-ups can happen anyplace, anytime. Three or four different landing areas make it a bit harder to police and/or "fix" the problem at WFFC than it is at our home dz's. If you aren't comfortable keeping track of a lot of other canopies in the air with you, then mid-day at WFFC isn't the place or time for you to be jumping. You can still get a lot of jumping in without dealing with a lot of traffic by getting on loads in the morning and finding other things to do when the rest of the planes start flying. funny thing about all this is they think going to other boogies, traffic will be better. More people, more problems. I leave tomorrow for the convention and am really looking forward to it. I go to skydive. Its cheaper for me to go to WFFC than any other boogie overall. judyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #70 August 9, 2005 Quote>Are you surprised there hasn't been a canopy collision yet? There have been a few. I recall Dead Mike's collision about 10 years back, and I believe there was another one a few years ago. I had forgotten about DeadMike. His canopy collision had nothing to do with people landing in different directions, though. IIRC he snagged his canopy on another jumper while going under him as both approached the landing area generally in the same direction. www.deadmike.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #71 August 9, 2005 QuoteHold up why doesn't low man set the traffic pattern? I don't get this. Windsock changing, blah blah blah, why doesn't everyone on the load follow the first jumper in?? That big arrow thing sounds good too. I just don't see how this is such a major, continuos issue, when it could be so easy to fix? Definitely not going to WFFC anytime soon. Landing area fuck-ups is way un-fun to me. You can't do first man down at the WFFC - there are multiple plane in the air at any time, and several landing areas. You have some people flying big canopies away from the main, and people with tiny canopies zooming to the main or to the swoop pond. While in the air there is never a discernable pattern. It is even worse when the sock and the Tetrahedon are pointed in opposite direction on light/variable days. It is nuts....and I have made enough jumps there to say that only the first year at Rantoul was the best year for canopy flight I've seen at the convention. Even with you head on a swivle you can't follow all the canopies that may effect you. Last year I had one hell of a close call. I was testing out a new canopy that I was thinking of using for a BM suit. I choose to land out far away from the swoop pond. NO ONE was in my airspace from 3000 - 1500. Apparently someone felt it was safe to fly and hover above my canopy the entire time because as I checked over my shoulder before I made my final turn I saw nothing but canopy. It's the first time I have had to left up my legs to avoid getting hit by another canopy. This happened at nearly 500 feet. The guy walked up to me and apologized afterwards and then ran off. And it seems it is the same people, or same dz's every year that want to claim the convention is a bust. However, from all I hear there really isn't that many there this year. I guess all those complaints and threats were real last year._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #72 August 9, 2005 Here's another: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1210 Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ACMESkydiver 0 #73 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteDefinitely not going to WFFC anytime soon. Landing area fuck-ups is way un-fun to me. Landing area fuck-ups can happen anyplace, anytime. Three or four different landing areas make it a bit harder to police and/or "fix" the problem at WFFC than it is at our home dz's. Yes, and obviously if I am jumping from a Cessna 182 or 206, or even a Caravan with only 6 people exiting over the landing area, I have much less to have to worry about. I see from what you and Bo have posted that it's more complicated than I had thought (I have never been there) and it is all the more reason I will not be found at this boogie. It's out of my comfort zone, and skydiving is supposed to be fun for me. -I don't make my living off of it, it is my recreation. Quote If you aren't comfortable keeping track of a lot of other canopies in the air with you, then mid-day at WFFC isn't the place or time for you to be jumping. You can still get a lot of jumping in without dealing with a lot of traffic by getting on loads in the morning and finding other things to do when the rest of the planes start flying. I understand your point. However, the reg. fee and plane tix etc etc etc just aren't worth going to a skydiving convention that I won't be...uh...skydving at most of the time. Not for me anyhow. I know a lot of other people are into all of the rest of it, but I could down a half bottle of Scotch with my hubby at home and wake up with a hangover in my own bed instead of in a tent somewhere and be just as happy... Even with it's complications, for everyone else's sake that does jump at WFFC, I sure hope the organizers of this boogie do take the time to find a simpler solution for canopy traffic. I'm sure it would need some serious thought, and I'm sure it's already been pondered it quite a bit, but there's got to be somebody that can step up and devise a workable plan. -If I was at the DZ, I would. Not that I know what I am doing, but y'know, I would offer up as many brainstorms as my little ACME head could come up with in the hopes that at least one of them might spark a true solution to somebody intelligent enough to figure it all out from there...Solutions often come from unlikely people that are just silly enough to bother trying to come up with an answer to an unanswerable question. ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #74 August 9, 2005 ACMEskydiver - its okay that you don't want to jump at the WFFC but be advised they have a bigger landing area than most other boogies. I've been to Quincy twice and this will be my second Rantoul and granted I'm not there for the whole time, but I have never encountered a problem with traffic under canopy. I guess because I choose a spot away from everyone and I'm not so lazy I can't walk. I'm not saying there isn't traffic issues, I've just never encountered them. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 35 #75 August 9, 2005 There are traffic issues at every convention. You're one of the smart ones by avoiding the problem areas. I made the highlight reel one night at the 1997 convention when I got caught by strong winds directly over the vendor area trying to land at the main landing zone by the manifest tents. I ended up landing on one of the gravel roads between vendor tents. Stood it up too, but boy that was some serious pucker factor too! I have friends who have gotten cut off by others and subsequently injured when on final approach. It's no walk in the park, I'll tell you that much. After witnessing the infamous Dead Mike incident and the hook turn into a camper by the Alabama Gang compound (just 40 feet from me while I was packing) that resulted in death to the unfortunate jumper, I swore I'd never go back to another WFFC... too crazy. Dublin is my new convention. But even if that gets too big and crazy, I won't go. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
skybytch 273 #65 August 9, 2005 QuoteDefinitely not going to WFFC anytime soon. Landing area fuck-ups is way un-fun to me. Landing area fuck-ups can happen anyplace, anytime. Three or four different landing areas make it a bit harder to police and/or "fix" the problem at WFFC than it is at our home dz's. If you aren't comfortable keeping track of a lot of other canopies in the air with you, then mid-day at WFFC isn't the place or time for you to be jumping. You can still get a lot of jumping in without dealing with a lot of traffic by getting on loads in the morning and finding other things to do when the rest of the planes start flying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
namgrunt 0 #66 August 9, 2005 I called and offered to bring my 30 foot long 3 foot wide neon orange arrow with a 6 foot diameter yellow smileyface but alass it was NOT needed but they did offer to allow me to set up shop for $850 plus registration fees BUT could not advertise . humm wonder why I did not go??? the arrow points to landing direction and is easy visible from 14000 feet up great for new,low jump jumpers wonder why more venders stayed home??? its ALL about the $$$$$ ..59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI) www.dzmemories.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #67 August 9, 2005 >Hold up why doesn't low man set the traffic pattern? I don't get this. Cause that's just not the way it's done at the convention. I don't know why. Their scheme is 'everyone land into the wind.' I made a few announcements to remind people that if they see people landing downwind, and they want to land into the wind, there are a lot of other landing areas to choose from. Unfortunately, everyone wants to land in the 'main' area so they don't have to walk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #68 August 9, 2005 >Are you surprised there hasn't been a canopy collision yet? There have been a few. I recall Dead Mike's collision about 10 years back, and I believe there was another one a few years ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #69 August 9, 2005 Quote Definitely not going to WFFC anytime soon. Landing area fuck-ups is way un-fun to me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Landing area fuck-ups can happen anyplace, anytime. Three or four different landing areas make it a bit harder to police and/or "fix" the problem at WFFC than it is at our home dz's. If you aren't comfortable keeping track of a lot of other canopies in the air with you, then mid-day at WFFC isn't the place or time for you to be jumping. You can still get a lot of jumping in without dealing with a lot of traffic by getting on loads in the morning and finding other things to do when the rest of the planes start flying. funny thing about all this is they think going to other boogies, traffic will be better. More people, more problems. I leave tomorrow for the convention and am really looking forward to it. I go to skydive. Its cheaper for me to go to WFFC than any other boogie overall. judyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #70 August 9, 2005 Quote>Are you surprised there hasn't been a canopy collision yet? There have been a few. I recall Dead Mike's collision about 10 years back, and I believe there was another one a few years ago. I had forgotten about DeadMike. His canopy collision had nothing to do with people landing in different directions, though. IIRC he snagged his canopy on another jumper while going under him as both approached the landing area generally in the same direction. www.deadmike.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #71 August 9, 2005 QuoteHold up why doesn't low man set the traffic pattern? I don't get this. Windsock changing, blah blah blah, why doesn't everyone on the load follow the first jumper in?? That big arrow thing sounds good too. I just don't see how this is such a major, continuos issue, when it could be so easy to fix? Definitely not going to WFFC anytime soon. Landing area fuck-ups is way un-fun to me. You can't do first man down at the WFFC - there are multiple plane in the air at any time, and several landing areas. You have some people flying big canopies away from the main, and people with tiny canopies zooming to the main or to the swoop pond. While in the air there is never a discernable pattern. It is even worse when the sock and the Tetrahedon are pointed in opposite direction on light/variable days. It is nuts....and I have made enough jumps there to say that only the first year at Rantoul was the best year for canopy flight I've seen at the convention. Even with you head on a swivle you can't follow all the canopies that may effect you. Last year I had one hell of a close call. I was testing out a new canopy that I was thinking of using for a BM suit. I choose to land out far away from the swoop pond. NO ONE was in my airspace from 3000 - 1500. Apparently someone felt it was safe to fly and hover above my canopy the entire time because as I checked over my shoulder before I made my final turn I saw nothing but canopy. It's the first time I have had to left up my legs to avoid getting hit by another canopy. This happened at nearly 500 feet. The guy walked up to me and apologized afterwards and then ran off. And it seems it is the same people, or same dz's every year that want to claim the convention is a bust. However, from all I hear there really isn't that many there this year. I guess all those complaints and threats were real last year._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #72 August 9, 2005 Here's another: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1210 Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #73 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteDefinitely not going to WFFC anytime soon. Landing area fuck-ups is way un-fun to me. Landing area fuck-ups can happen anyplace, anytime. Three or four different landing areas make it a bit harder to police and/or "fix" the problem at WFFC than it is at our home dz's. Yes, and obviously if I am jumping from a Cessna 182 or 206, or even a Caravan with only 6 people exiting over the landing area, I have much less to have to worry about. I see from what you and Bo have posted that it's more complicated than I had thought (I have never been there) and it is all the more reason I will not be found at this boogie. It's out of my comfort zone, and skydiving is supposed to be fun for me. -I don't make my living off of it, it is my recreation. Quote If you aren't comfortable keeping track of a lot of other canopies in the air with you, then mid-day at WFFC isn't the place or time for you to be jumping. You can still get a lot of jumping in without dealing with a lot of traffic by getting on loads in the morning and finding other things to do when the rest of the planes start flying. I understand your point. However, the reg. fee and plane tix etc etc etc just aren't worth going to a skydiving convention that I won't be...uh...skydving at most of the time. Not for me anyhow. I know a lot of other people are into all of the rest of it, but I could down a half bottle of Scotch with my hubby at home and wake up with a hangover in my own bed instead of in a tent somewhere and be just as happy... Even with it's complications, for everyone else's sake that does jump at WFFC, I sure hope the organizers of this boogie do take the time to find a simpler solution for canopy traffic. I'm sure it would need some serious thought, and I'm sure it's already been pondered it quite a bit, but there's got to be somebody that can step up and devise a workable plan. -If I was at the DZ, I would. Not that I know what I am doing, but y'know, I would offer up as many brainstorms as my little ACME head could come up with in the hopes that at least one of them might spark a true solution to somebody intelligent enough to figure it all out from there...Solutions often come from unlikely people that are just silly enough to bother trying to come up with an answer to an unanswerable question. ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #74 August 9, 2005 ACMEskydiver - its okay that you don't want to jump at the WFFC but be advised they have a bigger landing area than most other boogies. I've been to Quincy twice and this will be my second Rantoul and granted I'm not there for the whole time, but I have never encountered a problem with traffic under canopy. I guess because I choose a spot away from everyone and I'm not so lazy I can't walk. I'm not saying there isn't traffic issues, I've just never encountered them. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 35 #75 August 9, 2005 There are traffic issues at every convention. You're one of the smart ones by avoiding the problem areas. I made the highlight reel one night at the 1997 convention when I got caught by strong winds directly over the vendor area trying to land at the main landing zone by the manifest tents. I ended up landing on one of the gravel roads between vendor tents. Stood it up too, but boy that was some serious pucker factor too! I have friends who have gotten cut off by others and subsequently injured when on final approach. It's no walk in the park, I'll tell you that much. After witnessing the infamous Dead Mike incident and the hook turn into a camper by the Alabama Gang compound (just 40 feet from me while I was packing) that resulted in death to the unfortunate jumper, I swore I'd never go back to another WFFC... too crazy. Dublin is my new convention. But even if that gets too big and crazy, I won't go. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
