missg8tordivr 0 #51 August 26, 2005 QuoteWhy not go to an accupuncturist or an herbalist? That is like going to a General Practitioner for a psychological problem.....not the best idea because they don't specialize in that area (lack of specific knowledge). However, I have gone to my accupucturist for cramps.*** F LORIDA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #52 August 26, 2005 QuoteYou compound this arrogance, human judgment It sounds like maybe you've had some bad luck when it comes to meeting doctors. There are quite a few on this board who are most definitely not arrogant and genuinely want to help. QuoteAs for pap smears, what little I know, western medicine knows how to diagnose them pretty well. What is western medicine not good at diagnosing?There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #53 August 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhy not go to an accupuncturist or an herbalist? That is like going to a General Practitioner for a psychological problem.....not the best idea because they don't specialize in that area (lack of specific knowledge). However, I have gone to my accupucturist for cramps. I find it odd that people who claim to have such extensive knowledge of illnesses and diseases don't have the knowledge of one specific organ.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #54 August 26, 2005 Actually, acupuncturists are required to have extensive knowledge on chinese herbs. I would expect him to know a lot more than me, who has absolutely none, but is at least willing to have an open mind. This is a short quote from the doctor (not my uncle) who I previously mentioned. I'll see if I can add more tonight when I get home. This partly addresses my point: "The whole medical curriculum is about disease. There's nothing about health, nothing about healing. Why isn't there a course in remission to balance the course in pathology? There's nothing. Furthermore, when doctors get into hospitals, their actual experience of sick people is with a very skewed sample. They see the very sick, many of whom do not recover." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #55 August 26, 2005 QuoteActually, acupuncturists are required to have extensive knowledge on chinese herbs. Believe it or not I knew that. Which is why I said it would be like expecting an herbalist to know acupuncture (not vice versa).-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
missg8tordivr 0 #56 August 26, 2005 QuoteI find it odd that people who claim to have such extensive knowledge of illnesses and diseases don't have the knowledge of one specific organ. Actually they have to have knowledge of the entire body. Here is a short summary for you. "A lot of disease is caused by internal factors like; hatred, anger or fear. These can convert to aggressive energy in the body and can cause disease. So the main focus in this form of medicine is to diagnose the cause of the disease, then through treatment, acupuncture can stimulate your immune system and improve your constitutional health."*** F LORIDA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #57 August 26, 2005 QuoteActually they have to have knowledge of the entire body. It's kind of like saying, "I'm going to listen to this one person about what to do with my car, but when my car actually breaks down, I'm taking it to a mechanic."There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #58 August 26, 2005 Quote"A lot of disease is caused by internal factors like; hatred, anger or fear. These can convert to aggressive energy in the body and can cause disease. So the main focus in this form of medicine is to diagnose the cause of the disease, then through treatment, acupuncture can stimulate your immune system and improve your constitutional health." Um, what about those other external factors, viruses and bacteria? I'd always thought they caused quite a bit of disease, too?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
missg8tordivr 0 #59 August 26, 2005 QuoteUm, what about those other external factors, viruses and bacteria? I'd always thought they caused quite a bit of disease, too? Yes there are those as well. It doesn't say the ONLY cause for disease. The main point I was trying to show was in that last sentance.*** F LORIDA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
missg8tordivr 0 #60 August 26, 2005 No actually it isn't*** F LORIDA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
susanjumps 0 #61 August 26, 2005 QuoteUm, what about those other external factors, viruses and bacteria? I'd always thought they caused quite a bit of disease, too? ---------------------------------------------------------- Yes they do, but often they find a gateway into the body due to an immune system that is already affected by stress, emotion, etc. Personally, I have known some great and some horrible doctors, and anyone who says "this is the answer, period" I distrust. I have known one friend who was in the hospital suffering from injuries and the doctors were convinced he was doing much better and was recovering right up until he coded and died. My father had been examined by a team of "Medical Experts" at one of the premier health clinics in this country and was told he was in better shape than most of the population twenty years his junior. One month later he went to bed and never woke up. An autopsy wasn't even able to give an answer. I dislocated a limb and was told by my doctor that I would NEVER get full range of motion back. One week of Bikram Yoga totally obliterated that statement, and when I went back to show him, he couldn't figure out how I did it. I told him and he still looked at me like I had turned green in front of him and just muttered, "but that just doesn't happen." I have found that the practitioners of Eastern medicine are willing/able to take the time to collate a wide spectrum of information - like grief settles in the chest and can lead to URIs, fix the heart and the body will follow; whereas Western medicine will approach someone in the same situation, give them an antibiotic and when the problem continues or recurs, simply keep prescribing meds that often eventually follow with other problems. Mostly what it boils down to, I believe, is the time issue. When was the last time you were in a Dr.s office and you spent more time with the doc than waiting for him? Because of the way the western medicine is approached - treat this one and move on to the next - it often lacks the "wholeness" of a wholistic approach. The inability to communicate what you feel is wrong with yourself to your medical professional is what drives more people to homeopathic medicine. A Naturopath has the time and curiosity to examine more possibilities - as well as the educational background. The big thing to remember when you are venturing outside of traditional Western medicine, is to look for the educational and licensing requirements. There are boards/associations out there, like the AMA, but for natural/eastern/wholistic medicine. One also does not have to have any credentials from any of these to give themselves a medical title, in many cases. So look for the certification, the continuing education and the compassion you would look for in any professional who can affect the constitution of your physical being, Eastern or Western medicine - and educate yourself - then you can take or leave any advice you wish.Erleichda! "I just wasn't myself today," Gupta commented. "I wasn't any self today. I was an egoless particle of the universal no-soul." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #62 August 26, 2005 QuoteMostly what it boils down to, I believe, is the time issue. When was the last time you were in a Dr.s office and you spent more time with the doc than waiting for him? Um, gosh. Pretty much every time since I moved out of California. I wonder if it might be a state-by-state difference. The vast majority of doctors I've seen have spent more time with me than I spent waiting for them. I really think that what it mostly boils down to is patient attitudes. If you have a positive outlook, and (I believe most important) actually want to get better, your odds of recovery are far better.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites susanjumps 0 #63 August 26, 2005 Quote Um, gosh. Pretty much every time since I moved out of California. I wonder if it might be a state-by-state difference. I would venture to say it is a block to block difference, or city to city, town to town. I live in a area that has one of the best medical communities in the US, and because of that, if you want to see one of those great doctors, you may get behind the office door quickly, but you still have to wait a while for the Dr. to get to you - provided you can get referred to begin with. Now if we could just get the insurance companies to see the value of preventive medicine... SusanErleichda! "I just wasn't myself today," Gupta commented. "I wasn't any self today. I was an egoless particle of the universal no-soul." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #64 August 26, 2005 Quote I really think that what it mostly boils down to is patient attitudes. If you have a positive outlook, and (I believe most important) actually want to get better, your odds of recovery are far better. ...and it applies to the doctor as well. Go back and read the quote by WESTERN MEDICINE MD Andrew Weil that I quoted as well as susanjumps response. Besides actual practice, it is the whole outlook that is the problem as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #65 August 26, 2005 Quote...provided you can get referred to begin with. In my area, the vast majority of insurance plans don't require referrals of any kind. The patient simply selects the doctor they want to see and calls for an appointment. Definitely a regional difference, in that way.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #66 August 26, 2005 QuoteWhat is western medicine not good at diagnosing? Diagnosing, or fixing? It's pretty crappy with chronic ailments, as opposed to critical care. I hope I never have a back injury - bed rest and painkillers hardly seems like medicine. I've watched a friend suffer through that this last year. Quite a few doctors are a bad choice for skydivers, or anyone with an active recreational lifestyle. Why distrust doctors in general? Look at history. Their war against chiropractice in particular. Psychologists considered homosexuality aberrent until only a few decades back. It doesn't mean they're useless idiots, but they do have blinders on, and have made mistakes. Even before it's coupled with the HMO system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #67 August 26, 2005 QuoteThis is yet another thing I just really don't get. Why do some people NOT listen to doctors who have studied the human body for YEARS Because we get better information from the internet than our physicians. While the last two doctors I saw had no problems prescribing opiods neither suggested combining acetaminophen with an NSAID although this is common practice. Neither said anything about analgesic effect plateaus. Doctors can write prescriptions for drugs and physical therapy. They can order xrays and other diagnostic tests. After taking advantage of that smart people are often better off treating themselves. Buying from snake-oil salesmen is a separate problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nanook 1 #68 August 26, 2005 QuoteWhy distrust doctors in general? Look at history. Their war against chiropractice in particular In defense of the "Chiropractic war", years ago chropractors used "subluxations" as an explaination for diseases rather than pathogens. They also claimed that they could cure a wide range of diseases by popping your back. Most chiropractors nowadays don't make such claims. They are more in line with eastern medicine-esque pain relief than diagnosing and treating real illnesses._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #69 August 26, 2005 QuoteI hope I never have a back injury - bed rest and painkillers hardly seems like medicine. I hope I never have your doctor. I have chronic back pain (resulting from high speed impact after a low pull), and not one of the (6 or 7) doctors I've seen for it has prescribed bed rest and painkillers. The general consensus of my doctors has been that exercise and physical therapy are the right things for me to do.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #70 August 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteOh sorry....that is what accupuncture focus' on. Mostly fixing the root of the problem not just masking it. You really believe that doctors usually don't try to fix the root of the problem?!?!?!?! Really, most doctors tend to be decent people that are very intelligent and have spent YEARS studying the human body and how it works. Do you think that they just don't know what the root of the problems are??? Or, do you think that they're just not very good people and know but don't want to fix it? 10 years ago HRT was the hot ticket item for physicians to prescribe to their middle aged female patients. Then it was found that it did more harm than good. I also remember a fiasco with a drug called Thalidomide. You place altogether too much faith in the medical profession. More people die in hospitals than anywhere else.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #71 August 26, 2005 QuoteI hope I never have your doctor. I have chronic back pain (resulting from high speed impact after a low pull), and not one of the (6 or 7) doctors I've seen for it has prescribed bed rest and painkillers. The general consensus of my doctors has been that exercise and physical therapy are the right things for me to do. And has your doctor really said much more than this general statement? Has he prescribed anything specific or just left you to your own? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gmittar 0 #72 August 26, 2005 Both Doctors and Mechanics rarely take the time to figure out what's really wrong. That's why. |>.<| Seriously, W.T.F. mate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jmpnkramer 0 #73 August 27, 2005 I definitely listen to mine. IN fact when it comes to recovery time I extend what they say just to be sure I am good because of all the things I do. Quotecrap on informecials? C'mon now Valerie, you are an intelligent woman. When are infomercials on? In the middle of the night when sleepless people are like delerious and cannot think straight. QuoteMy friend's theory is that Gen X was raised to distrust authority. That would be different from what other generation. Is that not what people though of Rock'n'Rollers, Elvis, and countless other individuals and generations through the years? Anyway half that shit can be bought at Wal-Mart soon after you see it on the TV. Laters, K-MAN! .The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER! "HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!" "Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivermom 0 #74 August 27, 2005 I realize this is a very controversial subject and I certainly understand why natural remedies might be a little scary to some. Certainly we don't want to start self-diagnosing and self-treating because that could be dangerous. However, I have had a few personal experiences with natural cures. I have a doctor, a real MD, who practices homeopathy and prescriptions. According to her (and others) research, people die while taking prescription drugs too. The Vioxx fiasco is one of many examples. I was taking prozac and suffering from all kinds of side affects. The little benefit I got from the drug was not worth the problems it caused. I am now taking St. John's Wort and Omega 3 everyday and doing MUCH better without all the bothersome side affects. That doesn't mean I will never again take another prescription drug, it just means I won't limit my options to just that. And of course, it just makes sense to me that something found in nature is going to be better then something synthetic and man made. It is possible to go to three or four doctors and get totally different advice from each of them. I don't take all the naturalists at their word just like I don't take the doctors at their word either. I find out for myself. They may have been studying the human body for years, but sometimes we know our own bodies best. I believe prescription drugs absolutely have their place, but do not believe that is ALWAYS the answer.Mrs. WaltAppel All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivermom 0 #75 August 27, 2005 I can't speak about all doctors, but I do have a friend whose daughter was diagnosed with ADHD. She did not want Ridilin so she did some research and cut out some food additives in her diet. Sugar and artificial sweeteners were among these. Within a week her daughter had no more symptoms. I realize she could have been misdiagnosed and actually believe many children are. Changing the diet is what took care of the "root problem", taking Ridilin would have been just masking the symptoms. Unfortunately some people don't want to do the work that's involved in research and changing the diet (or just aren't aware of it). It's just easier to take a pill.Mrs. WaltAppel All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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TomAiello 26 #62 August 26, 2005 QuoteMostly what it boils down to, I believe, is the time issue. When was the last time you were in a Dr.s office and you spent more time with the doc than waiting for him? Um, gosh. Pretty much every time since I moved out of California. I wonder if it might be a state-by-state difference. The vast majority of doctors I've seen have spent more time with me than I spent waiting for them. I really think that what it mostly boils down to is patient attitudes. If you have a positive outlook, and (I believe most important) actually want to get better, your odds of recovery are far better.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
susanjumps 0 #63 August 26, 2005 Quote Um, gosh. Pretty much every time since I moved out of California. I wonder if it might be a state-by-state difference. I would venture to say it is a block to block difference, or city to city, town to town. I live in a area that has one of the best medical communities in the US, and because of that, if you want to see one of those great doctors, you may get behind the office door quickly, but you still have to wait a while for the Dr. to get to you - provided you can get referred to begin with. Now if we could just get the insurance companies to see the value of preventive medicine... SusanErleichda! "I just wasn't myself today," Gupta commented. "I wasn't any self today. I was an egoless particle of the universal no-soul." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #64 August 26, 2005 Quote I really think that what it mostly boils down to is patient attitudes. If you have a positive outlook, and (I believe most important) actually want to get better, your odds of recovery are far better. ...and it applies to the doctor as well. Go back and read the quote by WESTERN MEDICINE MD Andrew Weil that I quoted as well as susanjumps response. Besides actual practice, it is the whole outlook that is the problem as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #65 August 26, 2005 Quote...provided you can get referred to begin with. In my area, the vast majority of insurance plans don't require referrals of any kind. The patient simply selects the doctor they want to see and calls for an appointment. Definitely a regional difference, in that way.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #66 August 26, 2005 QuoteWhat is western medicine not good at diagnosing? Diagnosing, or fixing? It's pretty crappy with chronic ailments, as opposed to critical care. I hope I never have a back injury - bed rest and painkillers hardly seems like medicine. I've watched a friend suffer through that this last year. Quite a few doctors are a bad choice for skydivers, or anyone with an active recreational lifestyle. Why distrust doctors in general? Look at history. Their war against chiropractice in particular. Psychologists considered homosexuality aberrent until only a few decades back. It doesn't mean they're useless idiots, but they do have blinders on, and have made mistakes. Even before it's coupled with the HMO system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #67 August 26, 2005 QuoteThis is yet another thing I just really don't get. Why do some people NOT listen to doctors who have studied the human body for YEARS Because we get better information from the internet than our physicians. While the last two doctors I saw had no problems prescribing opiods neither suggested combining acetaminophen with an NSAID although this is common practice. Neither said anything about analgesic effect plateaus. Doctors can write prescriptions for drugs and physical therapy. They can order xrays and other diagnostic tests. After taking advantage of that smart people are often better off treating themselves. Buying from snake-oil salesmen is a separate problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #68 August 26, 2005 QuoteWhy distrust doctors in general? Look at history. Their war against chiropractice in particular In defense of the "Chiropractic war", years ago chropractors used "subluxations" as an explaination for diseases rather than pathogens. They also claimed that they could cure a wide range of diseases by popping your back. Most chiropractors nowadays don't make such claims. They are more in line with eastern medicine-esque pain relief than diagnosing and treating real illnesses._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #69 August 26, 2005 QuoteI hope I never have a back injury - bed rest and painkillers hardly seems like medicine. I hope I never have your doctor. I have chronic back pain (resulting from high speed impact after a low pull), and not one of the (6 or 7) doctors I've seen for it has prescribed bed rest and painkillers. The general consensus of my doctors has been that exercise and physical therapy are the right things for me to do.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #70 August 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteOh sorry....that is what accupuncture focus' on. Mostly fixing the root of the problem not just masking it. You really believe that doctors usually don't try to fix the root of the problem?!?!?!?! Really, most doctors tend to be decent people that are very intelligent and have spent YEARS studying the human body and how it works. Do you think that they just don't know what the root of the problems are??? Or, do you think that they're just not very good people and know but don't want to fix it? 10 years ago HRT was the hot ticket item for physicians to prescribe to their middle aged female patients. Then it was found that it did more harm than good. I also remember a fiasco with a drug called Thalidomide. You place altogether too much faith in the medical profession. More people die in hospitals than anywhere else.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #71 August 26, 2005 QuoteI hope I never have your doctor. I have chronic back pain (resulting from high speed impact after a low pull), and not one of the (6 or 7) doctors I've seen for it has prescribed bed rest and painkillers. The general consensus of my doctors has been that exercise and physical therapy are the right things for me to do. And has your doctor really said much more than this general statement? Has he prescribed anything specific or just left you to your own? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmittar 0 #72 August 26, 2005 Both Doctors and Mechanics rarely take the time to figure out what's really wrong. That's why. |>.<| Seriously, W.T.F. mate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpnkramer 0 #73 August 27, 2005 I definitely listen to mine. IN fact when it comes to recovery time I extend what they say just to be sure I am good because of all the things I do. Quotecrap on informecials? C'mon now Valerie, you are an intelligent woman. When are infomercials on? In the middle of the night when sleepless people are like delerious and cannot think straight. QuoteMy friend's theory is that Gen X was raised to distrust authority. That would be different from what other generation. Is that not what people though of Rock'n'Rollers, Elvis, and countless other individuals and generations through the years? Anyway half that shit can be bought at Wal-Mart soon after you see it on the TV. Laters, K-MAN! .The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER! "HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!" "Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivermom 0 #74 August 27, 2005 I realize this is a very controversial subject and I certainly understand why natural remedies might be a little scary to some. Certainly we don't want to start self-diagnosing and self-treating because that could be dangerous. However, I have had a few personal experiences with natural cures. I have a doctor, a real MD, who practices homeopathy and prescriptions. According to her (and others) research, people die while taking prescription drugs too. The Vioxx fiasco is one of many examples. I was taking prozac and suffering from all kinds of side affects. The little benefit I got from the drug was not worth the problems it caused. I am now taking St. John's Wort and Omega 3 everyday and doing MUCH better without all the bothersome side affects. That doesn't mean I will never again take another prescription drug, it just means I won't limit my options to just that. And of course, it just makes sense to me that something found in nature is going to be better then something synthetic and man made. It is possible to go to three or four doctors and get totally different advice from each of them. I don't take all the naturalists at their word just like I don't take the doctors at their word either. I find out for myself. They may have been studying the human body for years, but sometimes we know our own bodies best. I believe prescription drugs absolutely have their place, but do not believe that is ALWAYS the answer.Mrs. WaltAppel All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivermom 0 #75 August 27, 2005 I can't speak about all doctors, but I do have a friend whose daughter was diagnosed with ADHD. She did not want Ridilin so she did some research and cut out some food additives in her diet. Sugar and artificial sweeteners were among these. Within a week her daughter had no more symptoms. I realize she could have been misdiagnosed and actually believe many children are. Changing the diet is what took care of the "root problem", taking Ridilin would have been just masking the symptoms. Unfortunately some people don't want to do the work that's involved in research and changing the diet (or just aren't aware of it). It's just easier to take a pill.Mrs. WaltAppel All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
