"First down sets landing pattern" (was: Elsinore incident)

[Kami-kaze 0]

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...but actually they just haven't got the skill that is really important and downsize their canopy.

what do you reckon?

I reckon that one should recognize that not all jumpers have the same skill levels and they we all should make way for the less-experienced.

The FMD rule as depicted here for Eloy doesn't do that. In fact, it does the opposite. If they were at all concerned about the youngsters, they would have the hot rods landing out away from the designated pattern when they wanted to be "cool".

How any of this relates to skill vs downsizing I don't know where you're coming from on this wrto FMD.

I asked what you reckon about the confusion when FMD goes apeshit.
what action to take.
Like Bill said we can't have people going in all directions.
As I said, people have pre-determined set of values and that creates a problem to understand others.
I'll restate that I don't have a problem with FMD. I don't see why being a less experienced skydiver would have it. For me, as a less experienced skydiver myself, "The confusion when someone breaks this rule" overloads by brain. The security here is everyone is going the same way. The skill level is relevant here because if you have it then downwinders are not a big deal. So I asked what is the common sense upper limit for the first man to do downwinders. Then there are not so much dislikes about FMD.
I see this is a composite problem. The newbies and experienced who doesn't like downwinders are combining the problem with FMD. And then people started talking about the problems they have that is associated with piloting, but it is not the problem really with these two landing systems. One cannot fly with targt fixation, and one has to look up, down and around all over...and one has to do that from the beginning. Good habits come early. It doesn't come from being in the sport for a long time and surviving. That might just be luck because you can get yourslf killed for doing everything right.
Eloy has a student landing area. You don't have to be a student to land there. Some people actually seem to be embarrased or explain themselves to land there which is strange. One doesn't have to impress the others by landing in the main area or near the packing shed. You can land on the desert side. There is clearly a left and right hand approach established there.
cheers
I hope you understand my Jynglish.

[virgin-burner 1]

we have it at our dropzone, and i like it much better than pre-planned. but i jump at a place with often changing, and often stronger winds.

but it needs disciplined and educated skydivers. obviously that's not the case everywhere..

still there are idiots that make downwinders. but they get a talking to by the chief in service.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Personally I do not like following the first man down. People, even very experienced jumpers, make mistakes and land the wrong way. I cannot see any advantage of the FMD rule. I the winds are going to be changing that dramatically from the time you take off to the time you land then you probably should not be jumping.

You can land a canopy in any direction of final safely.
Its just a question of piloting.

If I go for fun in higher winds I would not go down wind, but rather 45-90 degrees side wind than turning into the wind on flare, but this don't come without notice of "do not follow me...."

I have seen the other side. Taking off with a big plan of landing, than most of the load(10+) have not realized that winds have changed and got stronger...then they got more fun or at least we did on the ground

[tetra316 0]

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Personally I do not like following the first man down. People, even very experienced jumpers, make mistakes and land the wrong way. I cannot see any advantage of the FMD rule. I the winds are going to be changing that dramatically from the time you take off to the time you land then you probably should not be jumping.

If I go for fun in higher winds I would not go down wind, but rather 45-90 degrees side wind than turning into the wind on flare, but this don't come without notice of "do not follow me...."

Not sure what you are saying but a lot of places with smaller landing areas you are required to land in one direction only, be it north or south or whatever. Carving and turning and flaring 45-90 degrees right before touchdown are not allowed or will get you a talking to.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Carving and turning and flaring 45-90 degrees right before touchdown are not allowed or will get you a talking to.

If winds are high that would be less than 15m depending on WL.

Is coming downwind as a first man allowed or will get you a talking to. ?

[tetra316 0]

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Carving and turning and flaring 45-90 degrees right before touchdown are not allowed or will get you a talking to.

If winds are high that would be less than 15m depending on WL.

Is coming downwind as a first man allowed or will get you a talking to. ?

If you set up intentionally downwind then you had better be landing in the high performance landing area and not the main or you will hear about it. Personally I see no problem with landing downwind. I used to do it a lot and plan on doing it more. However, for the safety off all involved you should be landing into the wind if you are using the FMD rule and landing in the main area.

[rehmwa 2]

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How can *everyone* create vertical separation if *everyone* is hanging in brakes? Again, probably inexperience talking but doesn't that mean we're all just hanging up there in the order we were before, separated by the same vertical distance?

Yup, nothing more fun than a bunch of boats hanging in brakes trying to create separation and forcing everyone above them to crush up.

On the other extreme - nothing like a bunch of swoopers hanging in brakes trying to ensure they have 1000 ft of separation from the guy below them. If everyone on a full Otter does this, then we need the last person opening at 23K.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[popsjumper 2]

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then we need the last person opening at 23K.

Helluva X-country ride, eh?

Enough time for a six-pack or two.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[parachutist 2]

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And how much time is required to discern the landing direction of all the people in front of you in the pattern, checking to see if you still have a viable out *and* scanning for canopies around you? Some of the more experienced people may be able to do this in their sleep but I sure as hell can't calculate that much stuff *reliably* on *every* jump.

Some are taught during the first jump course that all of these things must be done on every jump. No you can't necessarily see everyone who landed before you, but you can pick up on most of them.

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There are plenty more people at my DZ resulting in the first several people being in the pattern at the same time, well below 2000ft.

They should be able to stagger that enough to get the pattern established

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So, anyone with a large gap gets to choose which direction they're going to land? The students don't see anyone landing and then have to figure it out?

Yes. The low-timers should have no problem figuring out for themselves which way to land based on wind sock or DZ rules. Some DZ's don't even use radios from the start: teach the students how to figure this out from the start.

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No. We're all in the loading area at the same time and everyone agrees which direction to land. It's shouted *loudly* in the loading area *and* on the plane. Anyone that doesn't land in the agreed direction is pulled aside by other jumpers and told to get their shit together.

It sounds very similar to FMD... when somebody screws it up, as they will with either rule, then yell at them. It happens with either rule: You can't get it through everyone's head on every jump.

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How can *everyone* create vertical separation if *everyone* is hanging in brakes? Again, probably inexperience talking but doesn't that mean we're all just hanging up there in the order we were before, separated by the same vertical distance?

Very few people actually do, though. So if you go up with most groups these days you'll be one of only a couple or 3 who do. What if more people did hang in brakes and create the problem you're referring to, though? Then you use brakes to find your place in the mix. Smaller canopies head on down, middle range canopies let up a little and go for the middle of the pack, larger canopies stay up top, etc. Brakes slow everything down for everybody, which allows more time to do all the scanning and calculating that you mentioned earlier.

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The FPD may be some amazing canopy pilot that knows the DZ like the back of their hand but what if they're not? The FPD only seems to grant flexibility, in reality it grants flexibility to the first person down *only*. For everyone else, it's pot luck.

The FPD should be aware it's his/her responsibility to set an appropriate pattern for everyone else. Much like spotting.. first person out of the plane is checking to make sure it's a good spot for everyone. Yes GPS is fabulous, but first person out should be verifying before exiting... that's another story though.

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The FPD is at least partially decided by the exit order from the plane, so if there are 3 belly groups, all low jump numbers, they're all opening at 3.5k who's racing them to the ground to set the landing pattern right?

I've seen what you're talking about. It shouldn't be a race to the ground. If they know they're going to be slow descending, they can use the brakes, enjoy the view from 3k and plan their descent instead of jumping into rushed decision-making

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I'm sure a lot of my ranting is born out of my inexperience

It's good to hear your side of the story and see what's concerning you, so I'm glad you wrote back

[Baksteen 84]

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Maybe he figured correctly but just differently than you or I might. If I'm under canopy at DZ where FMD is the rule, the first man lands downwind, and I don't want to, I'll land into the wind, too. But I'll land out and take my sweet time walking my tiny balls back to the packing area while I rethink my main canopy choice.

There's testosterone dripping out of your ears. Please swallow, it might help.

Personally, I wouldn't even want to land a slow canopy like a Manta 280 downwind at 15 kts. 15 kts is about 28 kph or 17 mph - without even taking the canopy's own airspeed into account, which in this example should approximate something like an additional 5-7 m/s (or 10-13 kts or 18-25 kph or 11-16 mph). I don't swoop, can't run that fast and as for PLF - would you jump out of a car doing 50 kph (30 mph)?

Ball and brain size are not inversely proportional.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[murps2000 86]

There's testosterone dripping out of your ears. Please swallow, it might help.

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Well, there is, but it has nothing to do with skydiving. It comes from my job as a manly ironworker, building things out of metal... and brawn...

Personally, I wouldn't even want to land a slow canopy like a Manta 280 downwind at 15 kts. 15 kts is about 28 kph or 17 mph - without even taking the canopy's own airspeed into account, which in this example should approximate something like an additional 5-7 m/s (or 10-13 kts or 18-25 kph or 11-16 mph). I don't swoop, can't run that fast and as for PLF - would you jump out of a car doing 50 kph (30 mph)? ***


No I wouldn't jump out of a car at 30 mph, but I wouldn't PLF a downwinder. It was no 15kt wind, but because of a traffic avoidance move I once ended up doing a braked approach at 2.0 WL when I followed a FMD downwind at a boogie. I was running like Forrest Gump before my feet touched the ground, but don't take it as advice. I felt fit enough do it at the time, the terrain permitted it, and I believe after unloading a bit my canopy continued to support some of my weight until I slowed down. I'm not sure I could handle it now at my level of currency. That's why I'll use a bigger canopy the next time I skydive and go to a DZ at low elevation. You never know, I might have to land downwind.