Motor cycle help

[Hooknswoop 19]

http://www.sportbikez.net/phorum/list.php?f=11

Derek

[ChrisL 2]

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I think a 750cc would be irrisponcible and way too much bike for a first rider.

Irresponsible???

My first bike is a 1450cc Harley-Davidson Fat Boy.
Never sat on a motorcycle until I bought this bike 4 months ago.
I've got 3500 miles on it now, love to ride, I have no problem handling the size/weight. I took a motorcycle safety class and I'm as good a rider as anyone with my experience.

A smaller bike wouldnt have made me any safer.

Safety and responsibility are in the rider, not the bike.

Irresponsible? I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.
This isnt at all like a newbie jumper getting a high performance elliptical.

Edited to add: By the way, I'm not recommending my bike to the rider that started this thread, merely responding to the comment that anything over a 750cc would be irresponsible for a new rider.
If bigger bikes intimidate that person, then they should definitely not get one.

__

My mighty steed

[Hooknswoop 19]

From the above article:

"Decision Justification Arguments

I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

I'm a careful driver so I'll be a careful rider and not get into trouble.

I drive a fast car so I'll be able to handle a fast bike.

Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I?

These arguments are the most common ones put forth and the ones that are hardest to deal with. These are the arguments that start flame wars. Because it is on these arguments that you have to convince someone the idea of what a beginner bike is over their preconceived notions.

The arguments also often surface in what I call the "decision justification arguments". Many new riders have their heart set on a specific bike and often come to BB to ask about it not to get real advice but to get confirmation that their decision is right. In cruisers, standards, scooters and dual-sports, more often than not these "pre-decisions" are generally good ones. In sportbikes, more than 3/4 of the posters are trying to get the community to approve their choice of a 600cc machine as a first ride. Their shock is quite real when they are barraged with answers that don't meet their expectations and that is when a flurry of oft-repeated discussion ensues.

Let's take each argument in turn since these are the ones that turn up with regularity.

I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

The purpose of a first bike is to allow you to master basic riding skills, build confidence and develop street survival strategies. You don't grow into a bike. You develop your skills on it. As your skills develop, so does your confidence and with it, your willingness to explore what the bike is capable of.

But you are also entering in a contract with the bike. It is two-way. You are going to expect the bike to act on your inputs and the bike in turn is going to respond. The problem is, your skills are still developing but the bike doesn't know that. It does what it is told. You want a partner in a contract to treat you fairly. On a bike, you don't want it fighting you every step of the way. And like most contracts, the problems don't start until there is a breakdown in communication or a misunderstanding.

In sportbikes, the disparity between a new rider's fledgling skills and the responsiveness of the machine are very far apart. That is a wide gulf to bridge when you are still trying to figure out what the best inputs and actions on the bike should be. Ideally, you want your bike to do what you tell it and do it nicely. You never want the bike to argue with you. Modern sportbikes, despite their exquisite handling will often argue violently right at the moment a new rider doesn't need them to.

Remember, riding is a LEARNED skill. It does not come naturally to the majority of us (save those like the Hayden brothers who were raised on dirt bikes from the moment they could walk). It must be practiced and refined. Riding is counter-intuitive to most new riders. It doesn't happen the way you expect. For example, at speeds over 25mph, to get a bike to go right, you actually turn the bars to the left. It's called counter-steering and it eventually comes naturally as breathing once you've been in the saddle for a while. But for new riders, this kind of thing is utterly baffling.

You want your skills to grow in a measurable and predictable fashion. You have enough to be fearful of riding in traffic. The last thing you need is to be fearful of what your bike might do when you aren't ready for it. It's never a good situation.

It is interesting to point out that only one manufacturer, Suzuki, explicitly states in their promotional material that their GSX-R family of sportbikes are intended for experienced riders. This also applies to several of their larger, more powerful machines (such as a GSX-1300R Hayabusa). If Suzuki issues such a warning for its top-flight sport machines, it is reasonable to say that the same warning would apply equally to similar machines from other manufacturers."

Derek

[billvon 3,090]

Let me translate your post to skydiving terms:

My first canopy was a Nitro 120. I have 40 jumps on it now, I have no problem handling the loading. I went through the ISP and I'm as good a canopy pilot as anyone with my experience.

A larger canopy wouldnt have made me any safer.

Safety and responsibility are in the pilot, not the canopy.

Irresponsible? I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.
This isnt at all like a motorcycle rider getting a big bike he can't handle.

Edited to add: By the way, I'm not recommending my canopy to the person that started this thread, merely responding to the comment that anything smaller than a 150 would be irresponsible for a new jumper. If smaller canopies intimidate that person, then they should definitely not get one.

[skycat 0]

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Hey Ankie,

A couple of years ago I was looking at the Kawasaki Ninja 250 for Laura. It is a sweet little bike. Given your size and weight, it would be fun to ride and you can probably get all the speed you want out of it. It should be able to do around 90 on the highway as long as you are riding solo. They aren't very expensive and you can pick up a used one fairly cheap. I also looked at the Honda, but you would have a lot more fun on the ninja.

-OK

Derek and I have been looking at getting me one of those among other bikes and scooters. I used to have an FZR 600R, and while having a 600 doesn't scare me the fact that the seat heights in the last few years have gone up does bother me. With the bike standing up I can't touch the ground at all on Derek's bike, so that is out because I'm not comfortable having to slide off the seat at a stop light. So I have to look at other options like the ninja 250 which still has the 80s styling and the lower seat height, or a scooter.

No matter what I come home with I know Derek is going to make fun of it when it sits in the garage next to his bike. "Isn't it so cute, it's like a baby bike, don't touch it though you might crush it".

Fly it like you stole it!

[gravitational 0]

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Irresponsible? I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.
This isnt at all like a newbie jumper getting a high performance elliptical.

It's all depends on the end user...History lesson (kinda funny family stuff). My oldest brother and I (#1 & #3) were much more mechanical than my other two brothers (#2 & #4). Brother #2 & #4 each totaled my dad's riding lawn mower (his pride and joy) the first time they were allowed to get behind the wheel. Brother #2 put it in the lake, brother #4 ran it full bore into a tree then it rolled down a hill.

end result - some individuals are a bit more responsible when given more responsiblity than others. The end user can be fine riding a larger bike for their first. other users, should not even venture out in their car.

------
Michael

[ChrisL 2]

Quote

Let me translate your post to skydiving terms:

My first canopy was a Nitro 120. I have 40 jumps on it now, I have no problem handling the loading. I went through the ISP and I'm as good a canopy pilot as anyone with my experience.

A larger canopy wouldnt have made me any safer.

Safety and responsibility are in the pilot, not the canopy.

Irresponsible? I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.
This isnt at all like a motorcycle rider getting a big bike he can't handle.

Edited to add: By the way, I'm not recommending my canopy to the person that started this thread, merely responding to the comment that anything smaller than a 150 would be irresponsible for a new jumper. If smaller canopies intimidate that person, then they should definitely not get one.

Hi Bill.
I consider you to be an authority on skydiving and I highly respect your opinion on all things skydiving (and many other areas as well) so please dont take my response as disrespectful.

These two activities arent even remotely similar and cannot be fairly compared this way. Not at all.

Swapping out my points with skydiving related terms just doesnt translate. A motorcycle can be ridden slowly and carefully by a novice in a highly controlled environment until the rider becomes accustomed to how it handles and performs in a wide variety of circumstances.

A high performance elliptical loaded very heavily really cant.

Miles ridden dont equate to jump numbers

You really didnt make a point either. You swapped motorcycle terms with skydiving terms and made my statements look absurd.

I stand by what I said though, and so do a LOT of people whose opinions I respect in motorcycling every bit as much as I respect your opinion with regard to skydiving.

You could drop in all kinds of different activities and make it look sane or crazy, but none of them translate 1 to 1.

They are different activities with different levels of risk, different environments, different consequenses, different equipment, and different learning curves.

Making a direct comparison the way you have is inaccurate and unrealistic.

I stand by my comments.
I was not making any recomendations nor was I encouraging new riders to buy 88 cubic inch fat boys.

I was refuting the point that its irresponsible for a new rider to get anything larger than a 750cc.

I still disagree with this statement.

__

My mighty steed

[ChrisL 2]

Quote

From the above article:

"Decision Justification Arguments

Rereading my post I cant seem to find any attempts to in there justify anything.

I merely refuted the point that its irresponsible for a new rider to get anything larger than a 750cc bike.
I offered my own experience as an example, not a justification.

I still have yet to see anyone offer anything concrete that supports a limit on what a newbie should ride based on the displacement of the motor.

__

My mighty steed

[Cyanide41 0]

You will out grow a 250 quickly. I would suggest something a tad bit bigger but stay within your comfort level. Buy used so when you drop it, it doesn't hurt as much. Ride it for a year or two and then upgrade to something else.

Suzuki SV650's are great starter bikes and you can mod the hell out of them to keep them exciting and new. I recently picked one up for a track bike. (FAR from stock) It's no "crusier" but still will meet what you are looking for.

JAMES