Question for Pilots: ILS Approach?

[katzurki 0]

I am doing a translation of something that mentions "an aircraft ILS approach". For clarity's sake, do you do a completely "blind" landing when using ILS (i.e. you rely only on the instruments and might as well have put curtains over your windows) -- or do you only setup for landing like that?

[freeflir29 0]

Really depends on the aircraft, airport, and pilot. Differen't ILS approach systems have differen't minimums. Take a large airport like Atlanta International. I'm going to guess that they have a "0/0" system which if the aircraft is properly equipped would allow a complete landing. All the way to full stop on the runway without the pilot EVER touching the controls. Other airports will have a minimum visibility requirement. Say 1/4 mile and 200ft. So the answer is............."It depends."

[katzurki 0]

Pilot may not even touch the controls? Wow, really? I thought ILS was more of a landing technique without visual reference out of the window.

Thanks. :)

[flyhi 24]

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Pilot may not even touch the controls? Wow, really?

Your aircraft has to have a flight director capable of doing that and be so rated by the appropriate agency. Even without a FD, if you have an ILS installed, you can shoot the approach down to 200' AGL without visually referencing the outside. If you get to decision height (DH), and are not visual outside, then it is time to do a missed approach. But if you can't get in on an ILS approach, you are probably sierra out of lima at that airport. Not a lot is going to get you any lower.

But then again, it's like Jimmy Stewart said while shooting a GCA in the movie Strategic Air Command "Yeah, I have the runway in sight, but keep talking me down, anyway." Yikes!

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[billvon 3,120]

>For clarity's sake, do you do a completely "blind" landing when using ILS?

Normally, no. The sort of ILS landing that a private pilot performs typically has a 'decision altitude.' The ILS system (which is traditionally two components - the localizer and the glideslope transmitters) gets you down to, say, 200 feet AGL. At that point you must be able to see the runway. If not you must fly a 'missed approach' that climbs you back out for another attempt (or puts you in position for a departure from that area.)

Some aircraft have a system called 'autoland' which can land an aircraft in zero-zero conditions (i.e. no visibility.) This system couples the autopilot to the ILS system (usually) to obtain a 'hands off' landing. We tested one of these systems in an MD-80 a few years back, and it was creepy to watch the pilots not touch the controls at all during the last stages of the approach. To be able to use this legally there are a great many requirements on crew currency, training, aircraft maintenance and instrument functionality. It's more common to be certified to this level in places (like Heathrow) where dismal weather is the norm.

[Guest]

Heh - Used to do test and repair of ILS field checkout instruments; clumsy-looking handheld yellow boxes that generated localizer and glideslope signals that ground crews used to check the needles on the cockpit HSI.

The boxes had pots to move both sets of needles, as well as the flags. Kewl stuff....

IIRC, the F-15 A thru D didn't have autoland, but I don't know about the E-model; it didn't come on until some time after I was gone.

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Really depends on the aircraft, airport, and pilot. Differen't ILS approach systems have differen't minimums. Take a large airport like Atlanta International. I'm going to guess that they have a "0/0" system which if the aircraft is properly equipped would allow a complete landing. All the way to full stop on the runway without the pilot EVER touching the controls. Other airports will have a minimum visibility requirement. Say 1/4 mile and 200ft. So the answer is............."It depends."

Commercial Aircraft in the U.S. are rated category one thru three, the higher the better. CAT-I minimums are usually 1800 feet RVR, runway visual range. CAT-III are down to 300-400 feet RVR. 0-0 auto land has been in use for years in Europe. The technology is in place, but we still don't use it here.

[Ron 10]

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The technology is in place, but we still don't use it here.

I was jumpseat in an Airbus A300 and we did a 0/0 approach into I think Burbank.

It was to maintain the certification, the Visability was great, and it was quite weird to watch.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Rookie120 0]

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Commercial Aircraft in the U.S. are rated category one thru three, the higher the better. CAT-I minimums are usually 1800 feet RVR, runway visual range. CAT-III are down to 300-400 feet RVR. 0-0 auto land has been in use for years in Europe. The technology is in place, but we still don't use it here.

There are only a handful of airports that have as some are saying autoland capabilities. If I read the chart right believe it or not Atlanta Hartsfield is not one of them qualified. I flew jumpseat into Atlanta once on a CAT-II. And we took it down to the bare minimums. Took me about 10 minutes to yank the jumpseat out of my ass.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[HUSHPUPPY 0]

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Commercial Aircraft in the U.S. are rated category one thru three, the higher the better. CAT-I minimums are usually 1800 feet RVR, runway visual range. CAT-III are down to 300-400 feet RVR. 0-0 auto land has been in use for years in Europe. The technology is in place, but we still don't use it here.

We do use it here! At ATL there are 3 ILS Cat III approaches, and it depends on the equipment(has to have auto-throttle) in the aircraft and the qualifications of the pilot as to weather or not they can use auto-land. I have flown jumpseat many time into and out of ATL and have seen it in use, and it works well.

"You made my panties wet!" Skymama (Fitz 09)
"Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

[Rookie120 0]

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We do use it here! At ATL there are 3 ILS Cat III approaches, and it depends on the equipment(has to have auto-throttle) in the aircraft and the qualifications of the pilot as to weather or not they can use auto-land

I did not know if Atlanta had CAT-III or not. Never been on jumpseat during a III before. Would be interesting to see.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,120]

>Never been on jumpseat during a III before.

You don't want to be in it when the system's not working that well. We landed so hard it was painful. I thought we had bent the airplane; you could actually see the fuselage flex from inside.

[Rookie120 0]

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You don't want to be in it when the system's not working that well. We landed so hard it was painful. I thought we had bent the airplane; you could actually see the fuselage flex from inside.

In college one of my instructors showed some pics when he was in the Airforce from a botched landing on C-130 and P-3 showing us the damage of when things dont go well in the approach. A lot of sheet metal work to fix the problem.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[ffejdraga 0]

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The ILS system (which is traditionally two components - the localizer and the glideslope transmitters) ...

ahem...
from the AIM:

"1-1-9. Instrument Landing System (ILS)

a. General

1. The ILS is designed to provide an approach path for exact alignment and descent of an aircraft on final approach to a runway.

2. The ground equipment consists of two highly directional transmitting systems and, along the approach, three (or fewer) marker beacons. The directional transmitters are known as the localizer and glide slope transmitters.

3. The system may be divided functionally into three parts:

(a) Guidance information: localizer, glide slope;

(b) Range information: marker beacon, DME; and

(c) Visual information: approach lights, touchdown and centerline lights, runway lights."

I got the hairy eyeball early on from a DPE for saying the ILS has two parts, wouldn't want others to suffer the same fate...


jeff D-16906 CFII