Rant time: Do the educational faults of today lie with students, or teachers?

[craichead 0]

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the whole point of writing is for communicating. while it is incorrect spelling/semantics to write "your" instead of "you're" i think you can still perceive the meaning.... can't you? purpose served.

So, I'm curious...if you, as a teacher, saw a grammatical error on a student's paper, would you correct it so that the student would learn from his mistake and improve his skills, or do you just let it slide because you understood what the student meant?

_Pm

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"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[wartload 0]

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The second means that a smart dog knows that it is (it's) his own master. He is in control of himself and doesn't have to do what anyone else says.

Hey! That's what I said!

Yep ... smart dog!!

[wartload 0]

Going back to the original posting in this thread, I think that we all share some amount of responsibility.

I teach graduate students, many of whom have been public school teachers. I also have kids in public schools. That's allowed me to see the best, and the worst, of how or public schools function.

Parents have a great deal of responsibility for how, and what, their kids learn. Many of them are either not present to take on that responsibility, or they find reasons why they should be excused from doing so. One of the most prevalent excuses is, "What can I do? The government won't let me punish them!"

I see my kids' education as being managed somewhat equally by a team that consists of their teachers, the school administrators, and their parents.

We've run into one situation where an entrenched group of teachers and administrators in one school wanted parents to drop the kids off, pick them up, buy the band candy, go to sports events, and not interfere beyond that. It was nearly impossible to schedule a meeting with a teacher (meetings with parents had to involve all of the child's teachers and the administrators, and scheduling that sort of meeting was nearly impossible to do in a timely manner).

They had a good thing going--the system was working for their benefit--and they didn't want anyone to rock their boat. That school became known to parents as "the black hole" because no light seemed to come out of it.

A group of parents saw that school in the future for their kids and chipped away at it for over 5 years. By the time their kids got to that school, the situation--and staff--had changed remarkably. We now have a principal who understands that parents must be involved in order to achieve the best results.

My experience with teachers in a multi-state area is that there is a tremendous difference in competence among individuals and from system to system. Our own kids are in a pretty decent environment, compared to others in the region. That said, we still have a very few teachers who, although properly certified, have elected to pass out good grades and not do much teaching. Some of these are popular among students (no work...good grades), but they are a waste of our kids' time. They are the ones who say, "What can we do??? The parents won't let us discipline the kids!!"

We have a few more who do what they need to do, but who have unfortunately lost the spark of enthusiasm that makes the difference between an educator and a school employee.

Ok...here's where a few teachers who might be reading this would repeat the worn-out, but still-often-used, refrain, "What am I supposed to DO?? Put on a CLOWN COSTUME and DANCE AROUND TO ENTERTAIN THEM???!!"

The answer is a simple, "No." They don't need to be entertained. They need to be inspired. They need to know that you are a leader. They need to know that the subject is important to you. They need to want to find out why this leader places such a premium upon knowledge.

They also need to come home to parents who share that enthusiasm for education and who don't make excuses like, "That's good enough!! Everyone can figure out what you are trying to say!!"

& soapbox mode off #

[kallend 2,146]

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If individuals exhibit sloppy thinking and no attention to detail in one area of life (writing) why should anyone believe that they have good critical thinking skills and that they pay attention to details in other areas of life?

I don't think it's fair to equate poor grammar to "sloppy thinking". I definitely don't see how you can infer from someone's writing the quality of their critical thinking skills and attention to details in other areas.

Of course it's indicative of sloppy thinking. It's also sloppy communication, and shows lack of respect for the reader.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[FallinWoman 1]

This thread has intrigued me. At first I thought I would jump in with blame on the parents. However, I think there is blame to be had all around.
I am a math teacher in a public high school.

I am one of the few teachers in my department who actually expect my students to get the right answers.

I was in a meeting the other day with several teachers of one student. The English teacher said,"She is doing really good." If people were not taught proper English themselves, how on earth are they going to teach it to the next generation?

My daughter came to live with us two years ago. She said "axed" when she meant "asked." She said "tooken" instead of "taken." We quickly taught her the correct way and continue to correct any grammer or pronunciation errors she makes.

~Anne

I'm a Doll!!!!

[craichead 0]

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We quickly taught her the correct way and continue to correct any grammer or pronunciation errors she makes.

Grammar?

Good on you and Marc for correcting "axed." That's definitely a pet peeve of mine along with "nucular." Argh!

_Pm

__
"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[goose491 0]

Blame auto spell-checks in email and word processing. We have become grammatical slackers because of them.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[livendive 8]

Neither. The education of a child is (or at least should be) the parents' responsibility, and a deficient education is the parents' fault.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[wartload 0]

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Blame auto spell-checks in email and word processing. We have become grammatical slackers because of them.

Actually, I think that they help spelling--provided that the person wants to improve. The user has to see the correct spelling of a word before they change it. Eventually they'll figure out how to spell the words correctly.

[Squeak 17]

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We quickly taught her the correct way and continue to correct any grammer or pronunciation errors she makes.

Grammar?

Good on you and Marc for correcting "axed." That's definitely a pet peeve of mine along with "nucular." Argh!

_Pm

and Goverment
and WHY WHY WHY do Americans sat ANN-artica instead of ANT-ARC-tica that shits me for some reason

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[mouth 0]

I started to read this entire thread, got pissed and said "F*ck it." Do you really think we don't try to teach proper usage? Are you honestly that stupid to think teachers don't spend every hour of every day worked correcting grammar, attitudes, attendance, and outside influences? If I can get my students to add a period behind "Fuck you, bitch" I'm happy. (Thankfully my 5th graders are so much sweeter than my 8th graders were.) I taught all of the afore mentioned errors in 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and now 5th grades. EVERY YEAR they hear the same thing. Students are with a teacher for 7 hours a day. What they apply during the rest of the day I cannot be held responsible for as a classroom teacher simply because I go home to my children at night. I strongly suggest you walk a day in my classroom before you start blaming me for the world's faults.

END OF RANT....GRRRRRRRR.....BTFU

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[swedishcelt 0]

You go girl!!!! I'd like him to spend a day in mine as well.

[MarkFoster 0]

Having friends and relatives that are or have been teachers and some life experiences, I have a few observations (opinions?)...

1. It is difficult getting four or five adults to focus during a meeting. How much more difficult do you think it might be to educate twenty children for an enitire day, week, year? We overcrowd our classrooms then complain when teachers aren't babysitters as well as educators as well as surrogate parents as well as psychologists as well as administrators and on and on...

2. We spend $100 million for one B2 bomber. When was the last time we spent that much on a school?

3. How many times do people vote down education bonds, yet fund beer, cigarettes and lottery tickets at a cost ten times that of the bond per person?

4. I don't know how a teacher can overcome the parental and peer influences... or in many cases apathy, again considering the lack of time for one-on-one guidance... guidance lacking from many parents.

I don't think the issue is the students or the teachers. I think the issue continues to be the parents who don't support education and don't nurture their children.

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...if ignorance is bliss, I'm in Nirvana... you don't know what you don't know 'til you don't know it.

GravityGone

[Squeak 17]

i'VE BEEN CHECKING IN ON THIS THREAD DAILY WAITING FOR YOU to dive in and verbally kick arse

How you doing Lisa

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Frenchy68 0]

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You go girl!!!! I'd like him to spend a day in mine as well.

I'd like to spend a day in you yours as well.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[swedishcelt 0]

[craichead 0]

mouth, I sincerely appreciate your efforts as a teacher and agree that much of the fault lies with the parents and students, too. However, I still have to wonder, in the average American school, "How is the information being taught?" and, "Is the correct information being taught?" As I said, I don't know what the average school is like these days because I graduated a private high school 10 years ago, and I've no children of my own.

So, all I can tell you is what my experience was when I went through middle school and high school. We were taught all of the grammar/spelling basics, given weekly vocabulary lists/quizzes, diagrammed sentences, and did grammar/spelling drills ("correct the following sentences and explain the rule" type thing). In high school, we learned and used both MLA and Chicago Styles, and learned copyediting markup.

If we made grammar/spelling mistakes on our homework, tests and/or papers, they were marked, and we had to correct them. The teachers did not correct them for us. On a separate piece of paper, we wrote out the incorrect sentence, followed by the corrected sentence, and then the rule that was applied. Those corrections were often graded, and the score was figured into our averages. I distinctly remember Warner's English Grammar & Composition being the bible in most of my English classes. The student was forced to take a more active role in learning grammar and spelling.

Needless to say, I had awesome teachers who had awesome curricula. I also have awesome parents who always pushed me to do well. However, they rarely helped me with my homework. I was just an awesome student. Anyway...

What concerns me the most are statements like these from teachers:

(from rocketdog's post)

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the whole point of writing is for communicating. while it is incorrect spelling/semantics to write "your" instead of "you're" i think you can still perceive the meaning.... can't you? purpose served.

(from FallinWoman's post)

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The English teacher said,"She is doing really good."

If I were a teacher and those were my colleagues, I would be incensed! First of all, what kind of attitude is that for a teacher to have? "Well, I knew what he meant even though the grammar is wrong." Secondly, the English teacher can't speak proper English. If this is the attitude and information that is being relayed to students in the average American school, then I say some of the blame has to fall on the teachers and the school system.

_Pm

__
"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[j0nes 0]

I was appalled today when during a department presentation (100+ people), my department head put up a powerpoint slide that said

"katrina reeked havock on the southeast"

[MarkFoster 0]

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I was appalled today when during a department presentation (100+ people), my department head put up a powerpoint slide that said

"katrina reeked havock on the southeast"

....well, after the sewers backed up... it did.

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...if ignorance is bliss, I'm in Nirvana... you don't know what you don't know 'til you don't know it.

GravityGone

[mouth 0]

Pm,

I do see and respect your point; however, you need to realize what I search for daily is balance. If I am genuinely looking for my student to be creative then of course I don't hold them as accountable for gramatical errors as I generally would. You need to realize that often it is important to allow some things to develop (creativity and expressive writing especially) without the hinderance of grammar. That said I alway insist that my students "go back" and "recheck" their work for those errors once the creative thread has vanished. Curriculum is strictly mandated in the state of GA...I would think it is that way in all 50 states. I am held accountable for proving that I have taught each concept using many different modalities.

I welcome ANYONE into my classroom at any time of the day. There is teaching and learning taking place even when the untrained observer doesn't realize it. Sometimes teachers simply must find where it is their students are and meet them at that point before we can transport them to the place we want them to be.

This is my last post here on this subject. Until someone has spent time trying to teach a classroom of 26-30 students on 26-30 different levels all with different learning styles, different home environments (trust me you would not want to live where some of these kids live), and 26-30 different attitudes please don't assume that teachers are not teaching. Sometimes we have to settle with keeping the child in school and hoping for much better down the road. At least if he is in school we have a chance.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[rocketdog 0]

As a teacher, OBVIOUSLY yes I'd correct it. The difference here is the poster is an ADULT (who probably is not in school anymore) ranting about the incorrect spelling from other ADULTS on here -- not students. I stand by the argument that writing's sole purpose is for communication, and although people on here (and in general) misspell a lot, we can all still understand the post....... that was the point i was trying to make i think you were mistaking the context of what i said.

~hollywood

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com